Chris O'Shaughnessy | 00:00  
I think the name is even confusing sometimes. I've had kids who compete on it. And they'll say, you know, my dad is Argentinian, my mom is Somali, and I was born in Venezuela, I lived in New Mexico, the United States, and Washington, the United States, and Connecticut, the United States, and then we moved to Singapore, and so I'm a ninth culture kid. And it's not quite that, it doesn't quite work like that. Right. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 00:30  
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced Intercultural practitioners from around the world to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenburgh, International Director of KnowledgeWorkx, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. Welcome everyone to this episode. 
So today, I have the privilege to be with Chris O'Shaughnessy in our studio. And it's fantastic that you're back in the UAE, back into traveling. But that gives us the opportunity to sit together and record this podcast episode. 
So thank you so much, Chris, for making the time. Ever since we met for the first time, I've been intrigued by your life story, but the work you're involved with is so incredibly important and growing in significance in the world that we live in. 
So we're looking forward to hearing more about that. So Chris, why don't you introduce yourself to our audience? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 01:38  
Thank you so much. It is it's thrilling to be back here. The UAE has been a special part of my life for almost, well, it's been about a decade now. 
So it's nice to be able to be back. Yeah, I get to work as quite a few different things. I work primarily as a speaker. I do a bit of comedy. 
So a little bit of comedian thrown in there, which I'm always very nervous to say, because as soon as you say you do comedy, it raises everyone's expectations. It's much better to keep that secret and then just surprise people laugh. 
Exactly. Exactly. Otherwise, you raise the bar too much. And an author. I've written a book. I've got another one kind of brewing at the moment and write for a few different publications and online and really anyone who will have me. 
So yeah, it's a fun combination. When I try to explain it to people, I end up getting to say that in essence, I just get to fly around and chat for a living, which is a pretty great deal. It's pretty great. I can't complain. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 02:35  
Well, you do a really good job at it. And we'll come back to your book later on. But that is in and of itself testimony to your ability to tell stories in a funny way as well and see the humor in sometimes at that moment, frustrating or miserable circumstances. 
So thank you for that. Share a little bit with the audience about your earlier years in life, because I think that has had a significant impact on where you are today in terms of the work you're involved with, the way that you are able to impact people's lives. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 03:10  
Absolutely. Well, I am a third culture kid, which I speak on quite a bit. And by that, I mean, I sort of grew up a little bit all over the place. And I'm kind of a second generation, maybe even more than that as far as third culture kids go. And one of the quickest ways, I think, to identify a third culture kid is they usually have trouble being able to explain where they're from. That very simple question that a lot of people ask for TCKs can be quite terrifying. And it's usually a long answer. And mine's not even that complicated. But I think it's fun beginning even further back. My father is of Irish descent, but was born in Germany and grew up in France for a bit and then eventually joined the US military. And as so many French, German, Irishmen do. And I was born in the United Kingdom to American parents and then moved around as I grew up. Spent a lot of time in the UK and then throughout life, I had in Europe and bits of the Middle East. 
So that all kind of adds into your background story. And so for me, from a young age, I do remember struggling with trying to answer where are we from? Because my accent hasn't always matched where I am from. That's adapted and changed over the years. Living in countries, obviously, where there's a bigger linguistic difference and things like that. And I can remember actually trying to seek advice on where to answer where I'm from, being of one nationality but not born in that nation or living in another nation. And I think at one point, advice I was given, someone said, well, you fly through Chicago a lot. Just say you're from Chicago. And I remember thinking, well, that's not going to... I don't know much about Chicago. They're going to figure out really quickly that I'm not actually from Chicago. Because if I meet anyone who is, I'm going to look really dumb not having any knowledge about it. Right. 
So yeah, it's, you know, from a young age, multiple cultures had bearing on my development, on my experience, on my story. And it was later on that I learned about, you know, what the definition for a third culture kid and everything is. And it kind of inspired me because it brought a lot of clarity. And I wanted to... I realized there are lots of people like me. 
I mean, I had gone to military or international schools growing up. So most of the people that I was friends with would fall into the third culture kid category too. And I thought, wow, if they all knew that there were labels and language for us, it might make life a little bit easier. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 05:46  
You mentioned a few things linked to TCK, third culture kid. For our audience sake, explain a little bit more. 
So at what point do you actually become a TCK? One of my kids yesterday asked, so dad, if both the parents are from the same country and they move to another country, are they a second culture kid or are they still a third culture kid? 
So what's the package? When are you allowed to call yourself a TCK? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 06:16  
Yeah. It's such a good question. And in fact, I think, you know, a lot of the work in the field, there are some marvelously clever people who have been working on this for quite a while and frequently get together and have strokey beard and scratchy head meetings and are ever expanding sort of the definition. I think in general, a third culture kid is someone who spent a significant portion of their developmental years outside the country or countries where their parents came from. But there's a fair amount of leeway in there just because there are a lot of extenuating circumstances. And I think it's important to note, first of all, that third culture kids are a subdivision of a much broader category called CCKs, cross -cultural kids. And cross -cultural kids, that one's a little easier to define because it's not just a clever name. Cross -cultural kids are kids who have a cross -cultural experience. And that can be cross -cultural from their family. That could be, you know, multiracial or multinational parents. Cross -cultural kids can even be cross -cultural within one particular country or region. A lot of countries have multiple cultures within them. And so if you grow up being influenced by multiple cultures in a significant way, you are probably a cross -cultural kid. Third culture kids are a subdivision. And the ingredient that sort of adds uniqueness to them is usually a degree of transience. 
So third culture kids, usually it does involve multiple countries, but not always. But some degree of transience. 
So very common examples of third culture kids would be military kids, diplomatic kids, missionary kids. A lot of times there's a lot of movement. But it's not always their movement. 
Sometimes it's the movement around them. So I work with a lot of international schools who will have, you know, a portion of the school be a local population. Those kids are third culture kids as well, just because they're experiencing their own culture, the culture of the country they're from. But the culture of the international school, which is the international community is a culture in and of itself. And there's a level of transience there because international schools usually have a higher degree of turnover. In the international schools, usually diplomatic or military or missionary kids, they tend to move more frequently. And so even for the local students that stay, even if they don't move, the people around them are moving. 
So they're still dealing with a degree of transience. So a TZK in general is someone who has multiple cultural influences during their developmental years and experiences a higher degree of transience and transition. 
So there's quite a few of them out there. And I think the experience is it's more widely understood now. There's a lot more work done on it because there are there's some unique things that come with it. I think even the name, it's funny you ask about, you know, would someone be a second culture kid? I think the name is even confusing. 
Sometimes I've had kids who compete on it. And they'll say, you know, my dad is Argentinian, my mom is Somali, and I was born in Venezuela. I lived in New Mexico, the United States, and Washington, the United States, and Connecticut, the United States. 
And then we moved to Singapore. And so I'm a ninth culture kid. And it's not quite that. It doesn't quite work like that. Right. Although it would be fun if it would. I think we could have national competitions. Right. But in general, the reason they say third culture is that your first culture, and everybody has at least one, some people have multiple, would be usually what we would call your official culture or your paperwork culture or your passport culture. And the second culture, and people can have multiple second cultures, would be your experiential culture, where you're actually spending time where you're actually being influenced if it's separate from the first. And the idea of a third culture is actually that you have a bridge that moves in between those two cultures. 
So no matter how many first cultures or second cultures you have, the idea of the third culture is that it's sort of a connection. I think the illustration that I always like to use, because I like imagery a lot, is that if you were to think of your cultural identity as being a house, in that house, you can have many different rooms. And TCKs are an easy example, because it's usually extreme and a lot of times divided by countries. 
So if you have, for instance, I have a British room in my cultural house. I was born in the UK. My natural accent is actually English. I didn't learn American until much later on in life. 
So as a small child, I was a small British child in a small British village, drinking small British cups of tea doing small British things. So there's a very English room in my house. It's got a porch to the queen and tea is out promptly at half past three. There's an American room in my house. I learned an American accent and I've been associated with America. I lived there for a couple of years when I was younger. 
So there's those two. And it doesn't even have to be just a country. I grew up around the military. 
So there's a military room in my house that's got an F -16 fighter jet and a load of acronyms that will never be useful to anywhere else outside of the military, but will always be in my head. And even if you stop right there, what it is to be a third culture kid is not that those different cultures for me, those three rooms, it's not that they all get jumbled together. And so my identity is this warehouse with an F -16, a portrait of the queen and all that kind of good stuff. It's more that the rooms have to be separate for practical purposes for much of the time. And the third culture is the hallway that connects them. 
So I love that. So for example, I think, you know, I have a student I know who's German but lives in Japan. And so for him, he wakes up in the morning in the German room of his cultural identity, speaks German with his family, has brotchen for breakfast. 
You know, that's his German room. But then he goes to the international school and he takes public transport to get there. 
So he travels on the metro in Tokyo and he has to step out of the German room and into a Japanese room because linguistically it's different. Personal space is different, values and customs are different. 
And then he gets to the international school, which is yet another room, which has to be kept separate. It's in another language with another set of traditions and values and customs. And the idea that he transits through that hallway multiple times a day is really what the TCK experience is because he can't mix the rooms. If he spoke Japanese at home, that would make a mess. If he used the customs and courtesies of Germany in the international school, it certainly would lower the understanding of the commonality. 
So he's got three separate cultures that he has to maintain some degree of separation for as he goes throughout his day. So he spends a lot of time in the hallway. That's the TCK experience. They're people of the hallway, which doesn't sound near as exciting as it should. I wish we could say people of the Phoenix or something so much more exciting. But the hallway works. We're hallway people. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 13:12  
That's really helpful. Now TCKs grow up. 
So do they get a new name when they get adolescent or because they're not kids anymore? How do you deal with that? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 13:26  
That's true. There's a surprising amount of upset about that in certain circles. People sort of resent that we put the word kid on there. I say we. I take no responsibility. Those people are far more clever than I. I think what we're seeing now, there is that I hear the acronym TCA used a lot, third culture adult or a grown TCK. I think one of the things that I really appreciate about the kind of the experts in this field is that they are working constantly to sort of to use their words to expand the tent. Because the reality is even in the original definition, you know, it's experiencing multiple cultures during your developmental years. I think you can easily make the argument that for most people, what isn't a developmental year? You obviously do a lot of developing in childhood and through adolescence, but adults obviously are constantly developing as well. 
So I think there's definitely room for and a lot of validity in the idea of third culture adults. Some of the experience is different. 
You know, if your formative years have multiple cultural inputs, that causes some differences rather than if you had a monocultural upbringing and then moved into cross -cultural. There's some differences there, but there's a vast amount of overlap. 
So I think there really are the concept of third culture adults is incredibly valid. And I'm asked a lot when I speak in schools to parents. One of the most common questions is just that is they'll hear about, you know, the characteristics of third culture kids, the challenges and strengths that come along with that experience. And 100 % of the time, they then ask us, that's great. I'm glad I helped. 
You know, I understand my kids more. But me, what about me? Tell me about me. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 15:09  
Yeah, I've met a few, you know, 60 plus year old TCKs or culture adults. And when they start telling their story, yeah, you know, my parents moved for whatever reason to this in this exotic country. And it's fascinating to hear their stories. Now, in terms of your story, the fact that you were raised a TCK, you now have drifted into working with them. You are a world expert actually on this subject. And I can't help but think there must be a connection between your upbringing, what you've experienced there and the desire or the direction that you've moved into to come alongside other TCKs. Is there a motivation from your upbringing, something that you might not have gotten that you want to give the TCKs of today or something else along those lines? 
Yeah. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 16:04  
I think I mean, there's a story I use. I put it in my book and it because it was kind of a defining moment. And I was quite young. But it was the first major move that I can really remember. We'd moved a few times, even when I was just a wee baby. But the first one that I can really kind of recall details from, I was in primary school and we moved from a little tiny village in the UK called Fressingfield. And if you get bored, you can look it up on Google Meet and there's very little there. It's just a tiny village amidst a lot of fields. And my family was living there. My dad commuted a long way to a military base, had a good hour or so drive every day back and forth. I did. I grew up in this little village. It's where I started school. And it's why my original accent was British. And we did live on a tiny bungalow surrounded by sheep and fields. And that was life. Our school had, you know, maybe a hundred students and some sheep. And that was about it. 
And then we moved from there to Las Vegas, Nevada, which is vastly different. I went from a school of, you know, a hundred children and some sheep in a village to a school of three and a half thousand with no sheep in a desert. And I can remember, you know, a lot of the advice and everything. And everyone just kind of assumed, well, you know, you're going from the UK to the US. The language is the same. You'll be fine. I would submit the language is only barely the same. And there's more differences than sometimes we realize. But beyond that, you know, there's so much cultural subtlety that was different. And doing that as a small child, I can remember my first day of school being incredibly caught off guard by the Pledge of Allegiance. 
You know, I got to school and first of all, I looked ridiculous because fashion worked very differently in the US. This was the early 90s. And in the US, neon colors had only just been invented. And so, you know, they were everywhere. Everything was bright neon. Everyone looked like they'd been attacked by a giant highlighter. And the 90s didn't come to the UK until 2005. And so for us in the UK, we still in the 90s dressed like the 70s. 
So I arrived, you know, in very tight fitting clothes in non -neon colors. I stood out like a sore thumb and I sounded different. I had a little British accent. And I get to class and everyone's running and screaming and yelling. 
And then the bell rang and there was silence. And everybody simultaneously, without saying a word to each other, turned to the corner of the room and everybody put their right hand on their heart. They began to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, which is just what was done in American schools. I think it still is in some places. But as a small British child, I had no idea what was going on. I didn't want to look stupid. 
So I stood up because everyone did. And I'm left -handed. 
So I put my left hand on my heart. I didn't know that was a cultural no -no. And I could hear them. And, you know, the Pledge of Allegiance is very patriotic and it's very inspiring. And so I thought, all right, what do I know that's patriotic? The only thing I knew as a small British child was God save the Queen. And so I proudly recited God save the Queen to the American flag with the wrong hand on my heart. And everyone else finished because the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't go for too long. And in the silence that was supposed to follow was one little voice giving a one -man homage to the Queen. And just finished up, you know, happy and glorious, long train over us, God save the Queen. And my teacher was livid because that could be interpreted as ever so slightly disrespectful to say God save the Queen with your wrong hand on your heart to the American flag. And I remember after all this and I got in trouble and I was yelled at. And just the whole first few days were full of just little things that no one would think to know about. And I remember the big thing was that I had no way, my parents were very concerned and trying to help. And I just had no language to explain to them what was going on. I must have sounded like a small, crazy child because my way of expressing it was to say, you know, they said, well, they don't seem to like the Queen and they think that I talk funny. And when they say water, they use a D instead of a T and I don't drink tea as much as they should. And they don't have, and it was just all of this, you know, through my lens. And I just had no way to fully explain what I was going through. And so years later, when I did learn about the definition for a third culture kid, I remember thinking, you know, that is so helpful that there's language and framework to explain this because I'm not the only one who's gone through this. There are literally hundreds of thousands of third culture kids having to adjust constantly, whether they're moving or the people around them are moving. And how incredibly helpful it is to have, again, the language and the framework to be able to explain that, to be able to externalize what you're going through. And so it did that. That was a big inspiration, to be honest, was just thinking, how great would it be if I could help arm other people with language that would be helpful? 
Marco Blankenburgh | 21:07  
And sounds like you have plenty of stories to share that were painful maybe in the moment, but they are now funny stories and great illustrations for you to connect with your audience, in essence. Now, we talked about TCKs. If you would have to summarize their gift to the world, how would you summarize it? How are they able to make the world a better place? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 21:32  
I think in very powerful ways. And I don't just say that because I am one. I very genuinely think that they're in many ways a very necessary ingredient for where we're at because TCKs have the ability to be bridge builders quite naturally because that's what they've had to do. There was a man named Ted Ward. I'm very proud to remember his name. I'm terrible with names. But Ted Ward, remember that one, in the 1980s, basically said that third culture kids were going to be the prototype citizens of tomorrow. And I think we've gotten to the point where that's today because as the world continues to globalize, what we see more and more is that the challenges that we know TCKs face, everybody is now facing and the strengths that TCKs have, everybody now needs. 
So in many ways, TCKs are just a little preview of coming attractions. And it means that what they have to offer is a wealth of experience, a wealth of empathy and the ability, again, to be bridge builders. They have to live in an advanced sort of globalized world that everyone else is soon coming to. In very simple examples, I mean, things like conflict resolution is usually a struggle for third culture kids because if you grow up in transience, you don't really have to deal with conflict. When I was a kid, I realized if I got in a fight with someone, they didn't have to fix it because if I wait a few months, they'll move or I'll move. 
So you just learn avoidance. Very You need a lot more than avoidance to get through life healthily. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 23:02  
Interesting. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 23:07  
So we know now that it's not an organic part of third culture kids' growing up experience to learn conflict resolution skills. So we have to teach them far more intentionally. But that's crept into mainstream culture. 
I mean, one of the big things social media has done is it's meant that everyone is now struggling with conflict resolution because everyone can make relationships disposable. Because if you don't like what someone said, you can delete it or unsubscribe or defriend them. And so something we've known about TCKs for a while, that we need to spend more time on conflict resolution, is now applicable to everyone. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 23:41  
Fascinating. There's that's true. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 23:43  
A load of areas where. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 23:45  
Yeah. Other things that you notice about TCKs, I've heard parents, for instance, complain, my kids are not as Brazilian as I am. And it's frustrating for me. Or my kids are not as Dutch as I am. And I wish they were. What would you say to parents like that? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 24:08  
I would say so much. So much. Because it's such a valid point. And it's the thing is, I think, honestly, if I had to distill it down, I think if you look underneath, because that is, it's a very genuine sentiment. And I think it's worth paying attention to. Because if you look at it for adults who chose to move into the international or the cross -cultural or the transient sphere, for them, usually nationality is an anchor. Usually that is something that amidst all the change around them, they can still hold on to the anchor of underneath it all, I am Dutch. Underneath it all, I am Swiss. Underneath it all, no matter what discomfort I face in different places, I have an anchor. And so for them, nationality represents something that's a core part of identity, something that's safe, something that is constant. And so it can be really disheartening and disjarring when your kids don't feel the same way. But the difference is experiential. The difference is that for third culture kids growing up in transition, that hasn't necessarily been an anchor. It doesn't mean that parents haven't been an anchor. And I think that's where we can unpack that and sort of explain it a little bit, is that in essence, when we talk about nationalities, they're really just a shorthand. What we're really saying is when we say we're proud to be, and then you can fill in the blank, what we're really saying is that we're proud of a set of beliefs and customs and values and traditions and ethics that go along with that national identity. And it is, it's a shorthand. And for the third culture kids, I think it's easier to speak far more directly, because for them, nationality doesn't represent the same shorthand. For them, nationality is far more of a... When we talked about those different levels of culture, it's a first culture thing. Nationality might just be... That word might just represent a document or a paper. It doesn't mean they don't cherish or share or haven't been brought up in the values you're giving them. It just means they assign it a different shorthand. 
So I think with third culture kids, a lot of the time, the onus is on parents to not use shorthand, but to be far more direct, to say we value hard work or independence or community or whatever it is that may be, and our traditions are this, and we celebrate this holiday because it represents this. It requires some more direct explanation, because deep down, that's really what parents are saying, is I want to propagate my set of beliefs and values and customs and ethics. And so shorthanding it saves a lot of words, but it can cause confusion that, you know, that nationality is a shorthand just means something different to TCKs. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 26:49  
It sounds like that in and of itself is a whole podcast. Yeah, it very well could be. How do you create rituals, memorable moments around those things? Absolutely. 
Yeah, fascinating. Now, you joined the Intercultural Intelligence Certification now just a few years ago. You are already a globe -trotter, talking to thousands of people around the globe about TCKs, to their parents, to their educators, et cetera. Why join the Intercultural Intelligence Certification? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 27:22  
Well, I think one of the things that you get out of the ICI is that it helps with a phrase that I stole from a professor, but I'm just going to keep peddling it because it's such a good one. And he said that one of the greatest things that you can do to enrich your life and the lives of those around you is you can learn to process intellectually what you do intuitively. And I think that is the incredible power of ICI. That is the incredible power of, you know, what you do here at KnowledgeWorkx, is that it is able to provide framework and language so that you can process intellectually what you know or even don't know intuitively. And that's been important to me from the very beginning. The idea that the language and definitions of a third -culture kid can provide clarity. It's not just clarity, but it's providing, again, that bridge so that you can have intellectual capacity to explain something going on intuitively. And so, between, you know, on the ICI journey, everything sort of revolves around and points back to that. The idea that you can learn to process intellectually a lot of what you do or what those around you do intuitively. And the beauty of that is that using those tools, using ICI and 3Colors and 12Dimensions and all of these different tools, they help you take a lot of times something that would be internal, something like intuition, and externalize it. And once it's moved through that, once you can put it into a framework and give it language, then it can be taught, it can be refined, it can be shared. And all of that, intuition is very powerful, but intuition can't be those things. Intuition can't be taught, it can't be shared, it can't be refined. Intuition remains internal. It's still very powerful, but it's so much more powerful when it can be brought into the external world, when it can be taught and shared and compared and contrasted. And that is, I think there's so much power in just that shift from intuition to intellect. And that is precisely what ICI was able to do. It added an immense amount of power and tools to that aim, to be able to bring things so they can be shared and taught and refined. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 29:39  
Now, you have lived a very Intercultural life as a TCK. Could you maybe give an illustration of bringing the ICI language together with your own life's journey? For me, was there like additional, like, now I get it, or like, now I know why this was so messy, or this worked out so well. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 30:01  
Or... My goodness, absolutely. 
I mean, you know, easy examples that I remember seeing almost right away, even after learning about the three colors of worldview, which is being able to appreciate that we absolutely value things differently. And that lens runs everything. And so it helped me understand as I traversed the world, there were things I picked up intuitively, you know, different countries I'd been to where, you know, you realize, even down to, you know, high context and low context, you know, whether people speak more directly or not. I, for whatever reason, the British part of my upbringing hit very strong. I think it's because I went to that little tiny, very old -fashioned British village school where politeness and manners were of the utmost importance. And so, and that, you know, that in my worldview, it holds up, that's a very high value. Whereas for other people, you know, honesty and directness are very important. And being able to, again, put naming and words to that is understandable. It makes things more relatable, because then I can understand that actually, if I'm not careful, I can be really frustrating to people by being far too indirect, because I read between the lines. I would speak, you know, low context. I would never come right out and tell someone, well, that project is terrible. And I would say, well, it's not what I would have done. And expect that they just can pick up that that's what I mean. I'm just not going to say it. And realizing, you know, that everything from the three colors of worldview to, again, I love the 12 dimensions as well. It helps you realize and put a name to those differences. 
I mean, time is such a good one to understand throughout the world, you know. And even that comes down to a value assessment. 
You know, do you value? Are you respecting people by being punctual? And in many parts of the world, that's absolutely the case. But in many other parts of the world, you're respecting people by putting relationship over time. They're saying you're more important than what my schedule says. And those work fine when everybody is thinking the same way. But when you have to traverse them, you know, that's the fun part. It helped me assess, you know, some of the strain that I would feel when I was in a mix of those two worlds. Where, you know, I'd have people who I'm like, I need to be on time to meet these people. If I'm late, that would be very disrespectful. But the people I'm with now, they value relationship more than schedule. 
So if I leave them, it's not going to be a good excuse to say, well, it's nine o 'clock, I must go. They would think, well, how rude. 
Yeah, it's going to be difficult. So if nothing else, you know, it helps you plan ahead a little bit. It makes you realize that maybe the tight scheduling that you could pull off in some places, you have to buffer it more in other places if you're going to make allowances. And so, yeah, I think even just in my personal life, you know, let alone professional life, again, it's brought so much clarity to explaining things intellectually that maybe some of it I picked up, you know, intuitively. But some of it I didn't. 
You know, there's a lot that, you know, I've been to 105 countries, and I'm still caught off guard. You know, there's no way to ever fully grasp or comprehend or master anyone's culture. I don't know if we can even do it on our own. And so any tools that will help you traverse all of that, I think are so useful. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 33:26  
Well, you mentioned earlier on that no matter how old we are, we're always in a developmental year. Yeah, absolutely. And being a cultural learner is one of those developmental things that happens, hopefully, until we die. 
Yeah. Now, hearing you talk about the tools, the TCK language was a helpful way to open up a conversation to probably settle things in people's minds and their hearts. The ICI language around the three colors, the 12 dimensions, etc. But you mentioned something that I want to pick up on is that whole idea of you intuitively learn to navigate those situations. And that's what I've seen with TCKs. They just do it. Where other kids who grew up in a more monocultural environment would just blunder through it, TCKs, they very often, they just... Of course, this is normal. You talk to them, you say, yeah, of course you would do that. 
So, why would they even need to understand the Intercultural intelligence language? They're already doing it. 
So, just let them be. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 34:37  
Well, I think, you know, it's very flattering. And I would love to say that, you know, TCKs are just, well, they're just smarter people. But it's not that. 
I mean, they, in all honesty, it's a survival technique. And I think underneath a lot of that is empathy. And I speak quite a bit on empathy, because in some ways it's under threat. 
I mean, there were studies that looked at and said that empathy has declined about 40 % in the last 30 years, which is a pretty huge decline. You know, the ability to be moved by the feelings of other people. If that's being muted, that's going to have a lot of effects. In fact, I think, in all honesty, you know, a lot of the discord that we see around the world now in loads of different areas would chart pretty exactly with a decline in empathy. And third culture kids tend to be more empathetic, mostly as a survival skill, just because to be able to fit in, you have to be moved by the feelings of others. When you arrive in a new place and you're the new kid, you have to figure out so much so quickly in order to belong. 
I mean, it's the pecking order, the social standing, the customs, the courtesies, you know, who has the power, what's respectful to do, what's not respectful to do. There's so much minutiae that you have to adapt to. And so they tend to be empathetic because that is an easy way to read that is if you can be moved by the feelings of others around you, then if that radar is always on, you can figure out that, just because it was okay, you know, to just blurt out my opinion in my last school. Actually, this school that I'm at is you have to be very respectful. You have to be quiet and you have to wait until you're called upon. And I mean, little things like that, even to bigger things, to forming a friendship group. 
So empathy is a survival skill for third culture kids. They have to have empathy to constantly adapt. And that empathy makes it, as you said, it comes off as far more intuitive to them in cross -cultural situations because they're empathetic, because they're just used to reading what's around them in order to fit in. But I think adding on to that, I mean, you're right. 
Like that's it's a great skill to have. And they their upbringing has given them, you know, has honed their empathetic abilities. They can do that. But again, that stays just as intuition. And I think for third culture kids, you know, the power of things like ICI is just that it can move that intuition into something intellectual. And that's what the world needs. 
I mean, again, the world moves closer to their experience. And so tools like ICI help unlock all of the potential that TCKs carry around with them. And there is there's a ton of potential. The lifestyle they've had, whether it's born and some of it is born out of pain. It is not easy constantly having to be the new kid. It's not easy constantly having to rebuild your social structures. 
Some of it is born out of difficulty. But it builds a resilience that everybody is going to need. 
I mean, even down to the simplest level of identity. You know, identity has been a struggle for third culture kids because it does require different language. It's not as simple as just saying, well, I'm British. They have to explore a lot more. But everybody does now. I would argue that globalization is causing a lot of identity problems. I think that's another factor that we see and how divisive things are getting. 
You know, globalization, a lot of times has some very contradictory statements that it throws out simultaneously. You know, we want to preserve native cultures and traditions and heritage. But we want to put aside our differences and come together to tackle global problems. Those are actually two very different things, you know, if you Yeah. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 38:16  
Want to preserve. Different processes required. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 38:18  
And we throw it out all at once. And to navigate that is going to take people who can be bridge builders, people who are empathetic, people who their life experience can be translated because intuition will remain internal. And it's one thing. It's a good survival tactic. The TCKs can do it. But how great if they could take that and externalize it for the use of everyone. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 38:41  
It's interesting you mentioned that, because one of the things we do is we offer scholarships to young adults, late teens who have that intuitive skill set to navigate between cultures and even to create culture around them. And we've seen that as we've now had multiple teens to go into the big world who've gone through that program, that they often it not it doesn't just bring that sort of structural or academic understanding of why this works and why this doesn't work. But I've heard them tell stories where they say, I can finally explain it to other people. 
Yeah. I now have a language to say, well, if you do that, here is what you're going to trigger. But if you choose the other option, here is what you're going to trigger. And they can actually explain that to people. 
So they actually their skill becomes more transferable. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 39:33  
Absolutely. And what an incredibly powerful thing, just because not only is it something the world needs, but how freeing is it to be able to explain why you do what you do? 
I mean, that opens up into issues of identity as well. I think those sort of tools, they're not just beneficial to the people around TCKs, but I think it's beneficial for TCKs. I think it provides bridges inward to them as well for them to be to feel more understood. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 40:00  
Excellent. Now, you work a lot with schools. And from just the way you've explained TCK at the beginning of our time together, it almost sounds like every school needs this. What would you say to schools? Where do they start? How do, because, you know, schools are super busy places. Every time I talk to educators, their schedules are chock -a -block full. It's very hard for them to even consider another piece to the curriculum or an extra curricular thing. How do schools start to incorporate this way of thinking into the way they prepare their students for the future, for a global future? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 40:43  
Well, I think there are several approaches. I think you hit on it well, you know, just in the way you phrased that. I think that in all honesty, Intercultural understanding tied in with identity, tied in with the ability to process things intellectually as well as intuitively, needs to be part of the curriculum. Because it is, it would be a lot to add in as something separate. But I think in getting to work with schools, you know, I get to come in as a speaker, which is great fun. And because it's always a wise idea to hire a speaker. That's very important. Always a great idea. But honestly, a lot of what I get to do is to supplant and to be a part of existing initiatives. And I mean, for instance, I've seen, you know, one of the topics that I work with in school sometimes is unresolved grief. 
You know, for international schools, especially, a lot of times behavioral problems for third culture kids will have their roots in things like unresolved grief. That if you feel like you don't have control over your physical location environment, if you have to move all the time, you can compensate as a student by becoming very controlling in other areas. 
So it can lead to, you know, obsessive compulsive behavior. It can lead to eating disorders. It can lead to all sorts of problems that people may not realize for third culture kids have their roots in things like grief. And so but I've seen schools, you know, who have worked with who've taken that on and have incorporated, you know, into the art program, into the music program, into the reading program, into existing curricula. They've added in steps that tie it back into dealing with unresolved grief. I've seen schools that, you know, have worked into their student government system and into even the educational classes, things like conflict resolution skills. And so I think it can be done. I think schools, you know, a good place to start really would be to, you know, to get a good initial handle on who third culture kids are. Because there are some uniquenesses. Again, some of their behavioral traits are going to be different than at a monocultural school. And I think training up the teachers and the staff, I think, is really important because a lot of teachers will come into an international school with a wealth of experience from a monocultural setting. And a lot of that experience is transferable. But there are definitely going to be some new pieces for third culture kids, some new challenges, new difficulties. And it's worth educating, you know, the teachers and the administration on what those uniquenesses are. 
So that, you know, if you start with that, then it becomes easier to address those needs to figure out what it is that students are struggling with, what the core reason behind it is. So I do, I think, getting a handle on TCK basics is a good place to start. 
And then, you know, and do bring in a speaker because, you know, you should always bring the speaker. Of course. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 43:36  
Kicks things into gear. Kicks things. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 43:38  
Into gear. But it definitely, you know, it's part of a much bigger strategy. 
You know, I get to highlight things that, you know, the school will continue on incorporating and growing and learning. And there is there's a lot of research that backs up the fact that, you know, students who are able to resolve their identity in healthy ways perform better academically and socially and emotionally. 
So there is this huge benefit for schools to take all of this into consideration. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 44:05  
Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons why it's been exciting to start our partnership. 
So, you know, your ability to bring that unique expertise to schools, to raise issues with educators, with students, with their parents, their families. Shelley Reinhard, our education director, has built this beautiful program, Culture in the Classroom, which builds on the type of things that you're doing. Such good stuff. And it really helps teachers create the third cultural space in the classroom. 
Yeah. This broad mix of kids that they typically work with. 
So more information about that is connected to this podcast. You'll find it in the About the Podcast text there. But you can find it on the KnowledgeWorkx .education website. You mentioned your book a few times already. We, as a family, had the privilege of listening to the audio book while we were driving for a holiday. And we loved it. The stories were so relatable and funny. You are indeed a great comedian. How can people get a hold of your book? What's the title? And in what formats is it available? 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 45:13  
Yeah. The book is called Arrivals, Departures, and the Adventures in Between. And it's available in all kinds of formats. It's on Amazon and can be ordered through most major bookstores and bookchains. It's available for e -reader, either Kindle or Apple. And it's available as an audio book through Audible or just as an audio book again through Amazon. 
So I think there's links to all of the places to get it on my website, which is chris -o .com. But yeah, it's pretty widely available. If you don't feel like reading, then I can just read it to you, which was great fun. I have to say, recording an audio book is so much more fun than I thought it would be. I enjoyed it. 
So yeah, do grab a copy if you feel like coming along. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 46:00  
Excellent. Well, thank you so much. Time has just flown. It has. 
So thank you so much for coming in and for being in the UAE. I know you've got lots of speaking engagements and discussions about how to take this conversation forward. And I hope every kid in the country will be exposed to your wisdom, your expertise. 
So thank you for being here. And thank you for joining us on this podcast. 
Chris O'Shaughnessy | 46:27  
My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for doing what you do.