Linda Berlot | 00:00  
When I go back to Italy, they call me la straniera, which is the stranger, because I'm no longer so Italian. I've been influenced by my time in Africa, my time in Hong Kong. I've been living here for 16 years, so I have—all of these experiences have shaped me as a unique individual. 
So looking at culture from an individual perspective gives us a broader understanding of the individual sitting in front of you, rather than just a generalization around the nationality. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 00:36  
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenberg, International Director of Knowledgeworks, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. 
So, Linda, welcome to this podcast, and I have actually wanted to do this for quite some time. Now we finally sit in the Knowledgeworks podcast studio, and we have a chance to sit and talk about all things intercultural. 
So thank you for agreeing to do this. Just for our listeners, Linda and I have known each other for a very long time, and ever since we connected more than 15 years ago, we had the chance to work together on and off. And thank you for joining me in this podcast. And I don't want to say too much about Linda, because you're here, so I'd love to hand it over to you and just introduce yourself to our listeners. 
Linda Berlot | 01:48  
Thank you, Marco, for inviting me here. It's always delightful for me to spend time with you and for us to talk about what we love together. 
So who is Linda? It's a really good question. I had to think about that. Linda Bruna, Laura Berlotte, for the people that don't believe I'm Italian, because they're listening to my accent. I have lived here in the Middle East for the last 16 years, but have lived in many different places before that. I am an original Italian, should I say. 
So that's the blood that runs through my veins. And my professional background has been always in learning and development, although I spent many years in the cosmetics industry and lived and worked in different countries. Now I live here in Dubai and I lead an organization that is a team coaching organization. And we coach leadership teams across the region. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 02:47  
Fascinating. So it sounds like a lot of what you do is intercultural. 
Linda Berlot | 02:51  
100 percent. All of my teams are multicultural teams. Wow. 
Yeah. It's one of the things I love most about living in this part of the world. And in Dubai in particular, where we've got over 200 nationalities, for me, that's such a gift. I'm not sure I could live in a monocultural society anymore. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 03:09  
So it seems if intercultural is so quote unquote normal for you, could you recall a time where intercultural became real for you? That having been raised, lived in different countries, worked in different countries. But can you recall a moment that's where the intercultural piece became like staring you in the face or looking at you in the mirror? 
Linda Berlot | 03:35  
Well, when I was 16, my parents divorced. And so I went to live with my mom and we moved to Africa. I lived in Africa for many years, different countries in Africa. And as a young person, every time we went to a new country, it was a new school. And I was very aware, even at that time of differences between us. 
You know, at the time we went to Zimbabwe, that was the first country that we went to. And we had they had just come out of the civil war. And culturally, I felt more affinity for the kids of color than the kids with my own skin color. But I was white. 
So the kids of color didn't relate to me. I was continental. 
So the white kids didn't relate to me either. And so I was very aware at that moment that there are differences between us. And I had to get curious about those because I had to find ways to relate to the kids in the school. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 04:31  
So it sounds like at an earlier age already, you were thrown into that situation. Any stories that come to mind of how that was either easy or difficult? 
Linda Berlot | 04:42  
It was challenging. I went to a country which was, they had been a colony and they were predominantly, you know, it was British. And so being an Italian and continental and probably more emotional than they had expressed or experienced, I found that there was a lot of prejudice when I was behaving a certain way, you know, it's to be expected, she's a continental, or just that they didn't understand why I was feeling and expressing myself in a particular way. I felt like I had to fit in and conform, which was really challenging. I found that first move to Zimbabwe hard. Later, it became easier. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 05:29  
So it sounds like you really were, I wouldn't say forced, but the context required from you to already develop intercultural skills for quite early. Yes. 
Linda Berlot | 05:39  
Yeah, absolutely. And then it became easier once I clocked it as a young person, or it became part of the lens through which I looked. Every time I moved to a different country, it became easier because I was, you know, I knew what to expect, even though the culture might have been different. I was ready to look through that lens and look at how can I adapt and fit in. 
Sometimes it meant hiding in my apartment or in a hotel room for three days to deal with the culture shock. I did that once, first time traveling to Bangkok. I was so different. I was blonde and curly haired and stood out from the crowd. And I really was aware of the cultural difference. And it was the one time where I really suffered that cultural shock. I sat in the hotel for three days before I had the courage to then go out and explore. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 06:35  
Actually, that raises a good point, because even though you might have a lot of intercultural experience, culture shock can still happen. And that's something that people tend to forget. No matter how culturally agile you are, you could still end up in that environment where everything just hits you. And like you said, hiding in your hotel room. Sure. 
Linda Berlot | 06:57  
I, it was new. It was a new experience for me because even as a young person, after my studies, I put on my backpack and traveled the world for a year. And I always used to think to myself, language is not a barrier to communication. And I would find ways of communicating with the people I needed to in whichever language. And it was a fun thing that I liked to do. And, however, sometimes you are so different from the group that you find yourself in, it takes a moment to kind of be there. 
Yeah. And to deal with what's going on inside you. 
Yeah. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 07:39  
So we got to know each other in the UAE, in Dubai, many years ago. So even when the framework of intercultural intelligence was first introduced to you had a lot of intercultural experience already. 
So it wasn't that you lacked experience. What attracted you to the idea of intercultural intelligence? 
Linda Berlot | 08:03  
Well, I think, finally, I found words for what I had experienced. And everything started to make sense when I started to learn the program and learn the language and the views to look through what I was looking at. And I had always been super curious about different cultures and languages and the way that people behave and why people behave in a certain way. And so when I met you and we started to talk about this, and you introduced the program and the learning to me, the methodology, for me, it was just like coming home. It felt like finally I had, wow, what my experience was real and what I was thinking and I had experienced I could now talk about. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 08:50  
So you say, I can talk about it. Explain that a little bit more, because you were telling stories about your life to whoever wanted to listen. That was normal anyway. But what shifts using the ICI framework, the language, what starts to change? 
Linda Berlot | 09:11  
Well, I was telling stories on my experience. And when I came to the program, I started to learn that indeed we are different and we look at the world very differently. 
You know, the worldviews was so powerful for me. I could see that happening in my own family. 
You know, the power fear dynamic and the honor shame, you know, as an Italian and having to behave in the right way and say the right things and to not let the family down or not let shame, you know, come onto the family. So I had all this language and I started to really learn how really different we are. But to be curious about different cultures rather than criticize. And that's a trap. I think we are judgment machines, right? 
So all of a sudden someone passes a piece of information to you that explains to you about being curious and being a cultural critic versus somebody who's more curious and asks more questions. That for me in itself was revolutionary, even though I'd been practicing it, to now start to understand why I was getting upset with prejudice and things like that. 
Yeah. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 10:27  
I think you raise a good point that very often we can talk about the what and we can maybe talk about, you know, how we got to where we are. Yeah. But digging deeper into understanding the why and having a language to express the why I think is one of the things that the Intercultural Intelligence Framework does really. 
Linda Berlot | 10:45  
Well. Yeah, absolutely. 
Yeah. Absolutely. The other thing I really enjoyed was understanding that we are different. We come from different places, right? Even as individuals we are different. However, how can we come together and create a space that involves both me and you and doesn't marginalize either one of us? 
Yeah. So that for me was enlightening. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 11:07  
One of the things we've done with intercultural intelligence is we sort of said, well, nationality is helpful or ethnicity is helpful, but we said from the beginning that really we are all uniquely wired cultural human beings. Yeah. And you've lived that. I know that from experience that every person is truly unique. We all bring our unique journey in life to the table. But just for the listeners, why should we not try to understand culture making nationality or ethnicity the starting point of the journey? Because that's what we do, right, as humanity. 
Yeah. If you had to explain that to our listeners, what would you say? Why is the personal approach better than the nationality approach? 
Linda Berlot | 11:58  
I think there's value to learning about the nationality approach. However, I think if that's the only lens that you look at, you miss out on discovering who the person really is. Because take me for example. I'm an Italian. My parents are Italian. My background is Italian. However, I've lived out of Italy since I was 16 years old. And when I go back to Italy, they call me la straniera, which is the stranger, because I'm no longer so Italian. I've been influenced by my time in Africa, my time in Hong Kong. I've been living here for 16 years. 
So I have all of these experiences have shaped me as a unique individual. So looking at culture from an individual perspective gives us a broader understanding of the individual sitting in front of you rather than just a generalization around the nationality. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 12:48  
And you already mentioned, you know, being a cultural learner is totally linked to that. So personally wrapping your head around who you are, you have a very culturally colorful history yourself, journey. Using the intercultural intelligence language, the three colors of worldview, the 12 dimensions of culture, how does that personally impact you? What does it do to you? 
Linda Berlot | 13:15  
Well, first of all, it's given me a lot of insight about how and why I behave in certain ways, you know why I rebel towards certain things. It's given me an understanding of how I speak and communicate, the tone in my voice, you know, and an awareness of what the impact that could be on other worldviews. 
So if I'm very definitive, for example, and I come from a very powerful dynamic, I come across as very telling rather than eliciting a conversation as an example. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 13:53  
Yeah. Now, of course, if that's the type of impact it has on you, it obviously then starts to show in the way you interact with other people. Right. 
So maybe I'm putting you on the spot here, but could you think of an example with how that realization that starts to change the way you interact with others? 
Linda Berlot | 14:14  
Sure. I have a – well, it's twofold. 
So when it's being done to me versus when I do it. So I come from a family where, you know, my dad is the head of the family and it's quite hierarchical, it's power fear. And when my dad, bless him, who I love very much, but when he steps into his hierarchy, I rebel 100%. And yet I do it. I do the same thing naturally. I step into hierarchy partly because of my personality and the way I was raised, partly because of my role. And now I'm very aware if that's what it does to me, I can only imagine what it must do to someone else who comes from the same power fear dynamic or somebody who is not used to speaking up directly. 
So I'm conscious that if I step into certain behaviors, am I creating a space which shuts people down or does it allow people to flourish? 
Marco Blankenburgh | 15:16  
Fascinating. Yeah. Now, in your work, you've chosen to predominantly work with people, alongside people. You mentioned earlier on that your work is 100 % intercultural, which is on the one hand, you know, foreign maybe to some of the listeners here. They might have an intercultural connect a few times a year. 
Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about your work with Burlap Group. What do you guys do and how do you use the intercultural side of what you've learned in your work? 
Yeah. 
Linda Berlot | 15:52  
Sure. Just as an anecdote before, when you were asking me the question, I remembered I was on a global leadership call and they were discussing a particular question. And when they asked the question, of course, I go to the intercultural and working with multicultural teams. And I gave my view from there. And I said, before I can even address that question, these are the parameters that I have to face and consider when working with a multicultural group. And I started to name them and there was silence on this. There were probably 30 people on the call. And I asked, it was not the Zoom times. It was phone call conference times. I said, is anybody out there? And the response was almost unanimous. 
You know, Linda, we don't even think about those kind of things when we are coaching our teams. So working with the multicultural group really does bring a different flavor to how you work with them. But who Burlap Group is, we coach leadership teams across the region and they are multicultural teams. And my intercultural work, although what we focus on is relationships and team dynamics. 
So really working with the system as a whole and helping them be in right relationship with each other, because we believe they are the experts in what they do. But it's in the dynamics between them where it can go beautifully well or horribly wrong. And that's what prevents them from being productive. 
So I've worked with the ORSC model with the teams that I work It's a mouthful. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 17:33  
With. And ORSC, that's an acronym? It is. Business speak? 
Linda Berlot | 17:40  
Organization and Relationship Systems Coaching, which is a coaching model created by CRR Global. And the uniqueness about the model is that we coach the system as a whole or the team as one entity. Can Sure. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 17:56  
You explain that a little bit more? Coach the system as a whole? 
Linda Berlot | 18:00  
Absolutely. So instead of coaching the individuals as individuals, we coach. It's almost like when they come together, when two or more people come together, there's a dynamic that's created. There's a relationship that's created. 
So there's me and there's you and then there's the we. And so everything that we do when I'm working with the team is in service of the we, is in service of the team. You can think about it. 
So band, think about a band. I used to say the Beatles. And nowadays, these some people say, who are the Beatles? But imagine any band, there are the players in the band, the, you know, the players. But there is a we -ness and the band has a clear identity. And every band's identity is different from each other. And so we work with the band and everything that the players and the coach does is in service of the band. Couples understand that very well, then teams less so, because very often there's a thinking that, you know, if I'm doing my work over here, I'm not really impacting you. And so we teach them to see that everything we do or don't do impacts the team. Culture, of course, comes into it because very often diversity is a gift because it brings so much to the table. But whenever something is different has the, it can be challenging. And very often there are challenges that team members face between them, like, you know, cultural misunderstanding or communication misunderstandings. And so if they are culturally intelligent, they know how to work with it. But more often it creates conflict and misalignment. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 19:43  
So… Reminds me a little bit, it sounds like ORSK as a method coaching the system. It sounds like systems thinking, like there is interconnectedness between people, there is synergy, there is convergence, there is, you're not silos on your own. Right. Does that, do you see that connect? 
Linda Berlot | 20:03  
Yes, absolutely. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 20:04  
Yes. So coaching the whole dynamic, every facet of the dynamic of the team. In that sense, you already alluded to it just now, but how does the intercultural intelligence way of thinking, how does that fit in? We chose from the beginning already back in 2003 that we would see culture as something that's first and foremost personal, a reflection of your personal journey in life. 
Yeah. How does that connect with how ORSK tries to facilitate teams? 
Linda Berlot | 20:36  
I think very well, which is one of the reasons why I was so in love with your model and your material, because I could marry the two so easily. We teach that, you know, when two or more people come together, we consciously and intentionally create the relationship that we want. 
So we create a third entity. The ICI teaches that there's my culture, there's your culture, but we want to be conscious about the third cultural space that we want to create, so that we don't marginalize anybody, so that every voice is included and becomes part of the system or the team. 
So the thinking is very similar. We want to create, we say using our language, we want to be in right relationship with each other. 
Yeah. And be conscious and intentional about how we design that, which means looking at the individuals, hearing each voice, and then creating a team space where everybody's included and maybe creating a culture and a set of behavioral norms that we can all align to, given that we are all different. 
Yeah. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 21:45  
Yeah. Now, I love hearing you talk about it, but it sounds awfully complex and challenging. Can people actually, you know, how long does it take to really be good at this stuff? What does it take? 
Linda Berlot | 22:00  
Is it complex? Perhaps it is. I find it fascinating. And so, and I think anybody who's worked and lived in a multicultural environment quickly identifies to it. And I think like anything that's new, it needs to be brought. 
So awareness has to be created. But if you're working with a team over a period of time, because that's when you can start to change behavior, you help the team really clarify what are the behavioral agreements that will take us to creating the culture that we want. 
And then, you know, every time I meet with a team and I check in on their behavioral agreements, that's when we kind of course correct and make small shifts. And eventually over time, they can look back and see the change that they've made as a team to becoming who they want to be. 
So it's complex, sure, but not, you know, if we are conscious and intentional. And, you know, being in right relationship doesn't mean being perfect. It means how do we stay open, stay curious, not judge, you know, those are kind of. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 23:05  
Things. Now, we've talked about teams like organization or teams, but it strikes me that what you're involved with could be applied to any relationship in life. Could you talk to that? 
Linda Berlot | 23:18  
Absolutely. I talk about teams because that's my niche. A hundred percent what you're saying is I can align to totally. The first relationship is with myself, right? 
So I am the first system. And so whether it's the ICI material or the ORS material, we can integrate it within ourselves. We can create more understanding about who we are and who we want to be given that that's who we are. Then we look at how do I be in relationship with the people around me, my family members, my friends on the sports field, because we're always in relationship and we're very often in a multicultural environment. 
So it gets played in all places where we are connected or in relationship, whether it's the work environment or the sports field or a social environment, you know, or our personal families. Yeah. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 24:11  
So it brings up a thought in me that culture is almost always created then, even if it's between two people. How do you see that? We're always we're in a relationship, but we're always creating something in that relationship. 
So could you say that culture is created even between just two people? 
Linda Berlot | 24:33  
That's correct. We believe that systems or relationships are generative. 
So we're constantly growing and evolving. This is true for personal relationships as well as in the business environment. And because we as individuals are constantly evolving and growing, the culture and the relationship keeps changing, which is why it's so important to stay in conversation and continue to talk about how do we want to be together in the relationship or in the team, given that we are growing and changes are happening. Right. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 25:08  
Now, if you look at the year that's behind us, a very disruptive year for many of us. How do you see this in the world that we live in today? Why would you say your work is maybe especially significant in the world that we live in? We've just entered into 2021. The situation hasn't miraculously changed. If anything, relationships have become more challenging. How is your work making a difference? 
Linda Berlot | 25:38  
That's a great question. Thank you, Marco, for that question, because for me, it really is important to be making a difference. I think last year we partnered with our teams very often at no cost to them because teams and systems needed a space where they were held. They needed to be able to vent, to talk about their fears and then to start to look at how do I, instead of reacting to the change, how do I create from it? But when we're stuck in that fear dynamic, it's hard to be creative. 
So there was a space for that. This year, the work and the conversations that we're having with our clients are more around teams being burnt out, being really at the end of their tether, and yet nobody can give up because we have to keep going. 
So to help leaders be in conversation, to continue to create environments where there's empathy and heart and compassion. So moving away from very much the doing to the being. I think in the last two years, leaders have really had to look at stretching themselves in different ways of leadership to include more empathy and heart in their leadership. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 26:54  
So it's easy to say that, but especially when the job has to get done and where the goals have to be met, the financial targets have to be achieved. It almost sounds counterintuitive. Compassion, heart, empathy. What would you say to leaders who say, well, that sounds very woolly or fluffy? What would you say to them? 
Linda Berlot | 27:22  
Well, there's lots of data that can relate to the fact that positivity equals productivity. So positivity is really how safe I feel, how much trust I feel is in the relationship or in the team. How able am I to speak openly and not be criticized for speaking up? How can all of these things, how free am I to share how vulnerable I'm feeling or how afraid I'm feeling? And if a leader can create an environment like that, the team will pull together and be more productive. 
So there's a direct business case to staying in the woolly or soft stuff that you mentioned, because we're human after all, and that it will produce results. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 28:06  
Now, you've had the opportunity to use intercultural intelligence. It's just from the conversation we had. It's great to hear you explain how ORSC and ICI just are almost hand in glove. They fit well together. What would you say to other people who are working with teams, who might be coaches or maybe even ask other ORSC practitioners? What would you say to them if they're saying, interesting conversation? Why should I consider this? What's in it for me or what could I expect in the road ahead if I start to explore ICI? 
Linda Berlot | 28:45  
Well, in the globalized world that we live in, where there are so many placements outside countries of origin, people are traveling more. Even during COVID, when we're not traveling, we are more connected than ever on Zoom. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 28:58  
We're virtually traveling. 
Linda Berlot | 29:00  
We're virtually traveling. So I think monocultural environments are becoming rarer and rarer. I truly believe that becoming interculturally smart and savvy is a 21st century leadership skill. And you don't have to be a leader in order to exercise this. It's vital. I look at the gift of young people growing up in a world such as this, where they learn very quickly to interact with different cultures and learn about change. And I think that they have an advantage out in the world because they were able to fluidly navigate in different cultures and be successful in those different worlds. 
So for me, as leaders or coaches, we want to be successful in a multicultural environment. These intercultural skills are vital. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 29:53  
Now, 2021 is still ahead of us. We're one month in. And you mentioned earlier on positivity equals productivity. How do you see this year? What are your hopes, dreams? What do you see in the year ahead of us? 
Linda Berlot | 30:10  
I want to stay positive. I think the thing to manage is exhaustion and burnout. That's for me the challenge. We all crossed an edge last year. It was frightening. We're a little bit smarter than we were last year. And I truly believe with every change comes opportunity. And it's opened the door to so many different opportunities for learning. The virtual world now puts us in different countries, in different people's lounges and kitchens. And it's, for me, beautiful because all of a sudden we can start to relate to each other as people, not just as workers. 
So for me, there's lots of opportunity. I feel optimistic, even though I'm not blind to the challenges. I feel optimistic that we can reach each other in different ways and connect together in different ways. With a lot more compassion, a lot more understanding of the diversity that lives between us. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 31:13  
Fascinating. Thank you so much for this conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I love your perspective on teams, on relationships in general. And the way you've taken the environments that you were thrust into as a young person and taken all that learning into turning it into a career and a company that you've had the privilege of founding. 
So thank you for making the time. And we will make sure that information on how to connect with you will be posted at the end of this podcast. And thank you for joining. 
Linda Berlot | 31:50  
Thank you, Marco, for inviting me to the conversation. It's a topic that I'm passionate about. I always thoroughly enjoy having this conversation with you. 
So thank you. It's been fun. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 32:04  
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. As always, if any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you will find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about intercultural intelligence and how you can become more culturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworks .com. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole knowledge works team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, Nita Rodriguez, Ara Azizbakian, Rajitha Raj and thanks to Vipin George for audio production, Rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast.