SPEAKER_00: 2:26

When we talk about these change strategies, it's always a case of the logic needs to make sense to those that are engaged in the process because as they go through this process, they will make meaning along the way. So we talk about the way in which people interpret the world around them from a in a logical point of view. That needs to make sense, otherwise, you know, there's what we call cognitive dissonance.

SPEAKER_01: 2:52

Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility Podcast, where we bring you insights and stories from some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners working around the world to help you become interculturally active and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Michael Blankenberg, International Director of Melody, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. Well, welcome to uh to this episode, which is talking about a a topic that has become incredibly important in our world today, and that's the topic of change. So, George Kessler, welcome. Uh, you were here a few years ago, actually. Indeed. Uh we've known each other for a very long time and have been friends and colleagues. Uh while you have moved around countries, I stayed in the UAE, but you've been moving around quite a bit. But the concept of change and the topic of change has become super important in our world. So um welcome to this episode. Um uh it's gonna be uh uh I think really enriching. I've had the privilege of of hanging out with you at an academic conference the last few days where you had a chance to present uh your your research and uh the practical application. So uh I'm looking forward to unpacking this and making it uh making it uh accessible to people. So thank you for doing that. But for the audience that doesn't know you, maybe just a brief summary of uh of uh who is George Kesselar? Thank you, Marco.

SPEAKER_00: 4:45

Yes, it's a privilege to be with you today, and thank you for inviting me. Um as you know me, I I'm George living in El Andy. So um, yes, I've had the opportunity to move around a number of countries here in the GCC over the last few years and work with clients, um, particularly in the organizational change uh space. And um currently working from the University of Cape Town, the Grade School of Business, where I've had the opportunity to um start to you know put our ideas on how to manage change together and and really inject that into the academic conversations that are being held on that topic. Um, so yeah, uh thank you for having me. And um, let's get into the details.

SPEAKER_01: 5:30

Yeah, absolutely. Before I I just want to go back to the word landy for those who are not initiated, uh, because I know you're a passionate fan, but what does that mean for people who know nothing about that world?

SPEAKER_00: 5:43

Well, um yeah, so it just shows you how invested I am as I am in the topic of change. Yeah, um, so yeah, no, I love Land Rovers and I spend a lot of time in them. And um I'm hoping to go ahead and spend more time in my old series three. So um, yeah, that's where that comes from.

SPEAKER_01: 6:00

That's a real classic then. It is indeed. Well, um, the topic of change is one of the many topics that we've had a privilege of applying intercultural agility to or injecting it into the subject. And uh we've seen that all the way from counseling practices to uh developing high-performing teams to leadership development to creating culture in organizations. Uh, and the interesting thing is every time we bring intercultural agility into those disciplines or those spheres of influence, we've always seen that it's disruptive in some way or another. Uh, but if people embrace it, it's always positive disruption. It enhances, it enlarges, or it creates sometimes even a 3D perspective on things. Right. Um, so I'm curious, uh, in your case, um what why change? What why did you dive so deep into that?

SPEAKER_00: 6:58

Well, I I think from a personal point of view, I'm passionate about behavioral change, uh, but both at the organizational but also at the individual level. Um and I think my work since you know leaving the military many, many years ago has been mainly focused on um how we can support individuals that need to go through a fruit change journey. And again, whether that's at an individual level, at home, um at a very personal level, but also at in you know within organizations which can sometimes be very prone to um you know not being able to change. Right. Right. And we've seen that so many times where you know, in many of the journeys you and I have been on together, but also in some of the corporate transformations that I've been involved in, so so many times a lot of money globally is being spent on trying to get organizations to transform, um, to really become more competitive, especially as you know, various industries have demanded a level of agility that's often not easy to attain. Yeah. Um, and all that money that is being spent often ends up as a report on the shelf of the CEO, and it doesn't get implemented.

SPEAKER_01: 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:11

Um, and I think the resistance to change, which is an outdated concept, which we'll talk about in a while, I think um, you know, that really has been uh the front of mind. And because of that, often what we've been investing in to allow for this agility to take place has not been implemented. Right. Um that's a big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a very big deal. And that's really where my interest comes from is you know, um, how do we get people to change? Uh, because people like change. I don't think you know the the old adage that people don't like to change, etc., etc., is really true. In my experience, okay, people don't mind changing. Um, but there are some things that we really need to focus on to support them in that process. And very importantly, not only to support them, because that's been a big focus in the change management industry, is how do we get people to not resist? Okay. But rather um to support individuals that they can make sense of the way in which they're experiencing the change, uh, whether that's a resistance or um, you know, actively supporting it in the way in which which we in the past has framed that and to bring that to bear during the change process and make a positive contribution. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:27

Um if I if I hear you right, it's uh to me that's refreshing that you you you're saying people in general don't mind change. Yeah. But what they do mind is change on somebody else's terms.

SPEAKER_00: 9:40

Aaron Powell Exactly. That's a very good way of putting it.

SPEAKER_03: 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:42

And I think um, traditionally when especially if we're talking you know within an organizational change um context, um, I think a lot of resistance have come through from the fact that external experts are used to kick off the process, which um that's not necessarily a problem. But often that's voiced in the sense of what do these people know about our business? Um There's suspicion there. There's a suspicion, yes. And you know, and the expert knowledge that these consultants, for example, bring into the workplace are often disregarded because of this very basic concept of they're not involved in our business, they don't know how, and this is particularly true in the developing world, in what we call the global self, if you want, um, where um a lot of what consultants bring into the boardroom have been developed elsewhere, and it doesn't necessarily resonate um with people, for example, in this part of the world.

SPEAKER_02: 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:41

And um, so finding ways that we can support CEOs, boards, um, but also the guy you know sitting behind a laptop somewhere, having to execute a process to adapt to what you know so many different aspects of life now are forcing us to adapt to. And a digital transformation is one of the you know major aspects that we are dealing with at the moment. Yeah. And it helped them to engage in that process productively so that they go home in the evening and say, you know what? Today was actually quite you know um restorative in a way, in that I've been given the opportunity to make a positive change in the workplace, to contribute to a change, and then to implement it in a way that makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_01: 11:25

Yeah. You mentioned already one of the reasons why change sometimes doesn't work, and that is copy-paste from another part of the world. Yep. Um I read somewhere that you know up to 70% of change initiatives don't m uh achieve their objectives or fail altogether. Um what are some other reasons why so many initiatives fail?

SPEAKER_00: 12:11

Well, there's a number of ways of looking at it. Um so typically one of the key um ways of looking at a change process, whether it's failed or not, is really just looking at the surface. So you'd have key KPIs that have been or objectives that have been agreed upon up front, um uh you know, changing a certain level of income that is generated, uh maybe making something a process more efficient, or just plainly getting people to behave in a different way.

SPEAKER_03: 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:41

Um and that really is where the 70% um argument is coming from. If you can look at the surface, 70% of change initiatives, actually more, like 77%. I mean some industries is higher than other industries, fail. But um recently there was a uh a study done that looked at it from a very different point of view. So they argued that we look can look at it at the surface, but that's too superficial. We also need to look at it at a process level. So how you know how's change implemented? And is that process uh being implemented successfully and in the right manner? Uh-huh. Um, and then very importantly, um, are we looking at and what's referred to as the deeper structures of change? So the those aspects that really lie very deep in the psyche of individuals that are going through this change process. And do we understand those? And that's where my interest lies. Right, right. Um, and and was also the reason why I decided to spend you know this latter part of my career uh trying to pull the the experiences that I have had, and many of them with you, um, you know, into some form of a coherent document that we can use to guide others in understanding those deeper aspects of change. And I think that's where our practice comes in quite um usefully.

SPEAKER_01: 14:02

You use the word deeper psyche, but so there is both the psychological side of change, but what is probably hasn't been under the spotlight that much is the cultural side of change. Yeah, and um you know, m at the moment a lot of people say, well, you know, if uh if a uh a Japanese company acquires a company in Brazil, all they need to know is, you know, the Brazilians versus the Japanese, and that's good enough. Uh but it sounds like what you're saying that that you need to go much deeper than that.

SPEAKER_00: 14:38

Absolutely, yes. And I and I think that's also been reflected in the way in which both academia and and practitioners look at change, in that traditionally the focus was very much on um you know a quantitative variance-based, if I can use those words, uh, view on change. So we we try from a psychological point of view identify um some antecedents, things that you know precede when uh whatever people do during a change process, and and we try and manage those, measure them quantitively, and then come up with all kinds of theories that you know, if we apply them, would help us to manage change consistently better.

SPEAKER_02: 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:18

Um, but I think what we've started to understand now for a number of years is that you know we are social beings. Um we live in social contexts, we are part of social networks. And um, particularly in a global world as you know, the one we live in today, that Japanese industrialist is part of a social network that also includes maybe a American financier. And so you cannot at this point in time uh specifically say that there is one way of looking at both psychology, but also you know, of culture, looking at culture. So the whole idea of social psychology, et cetera, you know, has gained a lot of traction. And um the the way of thinking, if you want, uh in change or of change that that I've uh subscribed to really looks at an individual and specifically an executive within an organization as a social being that you know makes meaning within a social context. I don't sit in the corner of my office and think about something and then you know uh start acting in a certain way based on what I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing this in context. And context is really important. And context is socially constructed, you know, to use the academic.

SPEAKER_01: 16:34

It reminds me a bit of what we always talk about in perception management. So perceiving myself, perceiving you, perceiving the relationship and the context in which I'm trying to operate. Right. And all four of those are impacted if change is required from me, or if I'm the one who's supposed to lead change. Uh something happens to me, something happens to you, something happens to the relationship, and something happens to the context. And they're all starting to shift.

SPEAKER_00: 17:02

Right. Yeah. I think linked to that, you know, uh what's important to understand is that we now know that if something happens to you, it also happens to me. Yeah. So I even in traditionally um aspects of change that you would think impacts the individual, um, that in itself is a fallacy because something that happens to you directly affects me immediately. Interesting. Um and it it's really interesting. Some of the, you know, the uh the thinkers behind cultural intelligence and cultural agility really said that as an individual, I hear myself and I answer. And the way in which I hear myself is very heavily dependent on how the others perceive the way I behave. Because essentially I'm hearing them talking about the way I'm behaving.

SPEAKER_02: 17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:51

Um and so if we understand this kind of social networked environment, um we can really get into now really how does change work? And that's that's what we focus on.

SPEAKER_01: 18:01

What does it look like when when you start to uh bring this way of thinking into uh a desire for change or the implementation of it? Right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:12

So what we've discovered is that um, irregardless of a lot of thinking that has taken place over the last since 1947, when the whole idea of change management was codified. Um we've discovered that um not much have actually changed since the early days.

SPEAKER_01: 18:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

We s especially from an organizational point of view, um, large initiatives are still managed in a three-stage process. So this idea of you know, we we unfreeze what's happening at the moment, we you know, we if there's stability, we make it unstable. Then we change um you know, based on the objectives that we want to achieve. And then when that once that process is underway, we try and refreeze all of that into a new state that you know should now exist uh consistently. Yeah. And um doing that, uh you know, we employ strategies that are either um based on the way we we you know we logically think about things, or you know, we force things down people's throats. You know, we apply power, um, or we we try and create new norms. Uh, in in other words, the way people should behave once this uh new policy has been implemented or we've acquired this new company or whatever the objective of the change is. Yeah. So that hasn't really changed over the last fascinating 70 years, really.

SPEAKER_01: 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:35

Um particularly when we are looking at large change initiatives, and and those are the ones that interest me because that's where we spend a tremendous amount of our resources that can be gainfully employed elsewhere. Um if we get behind how this thing works.

SPEAKER_02: 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:50

And you know, if we manage to be able to support it better, because managing change is also a bit of a fallacy. You can't manage a process that is so rich. You can only support it and get involved in the ways in which people make meaning.

SPEAKER_01: 20:07

So support change management is actually a wrong uh misnomer. It is. It is.

SPEAKER_00: 20:12

We you know we like to you know to label things because when we label them, we make it you know make it easier for us to understand them.

SPEAKER_01: 20:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:18

But even change, you can't manage. Change. Yeah. And you can in you know you engage with the process.

SPEAKER_01: 20:24

I I like how you pretty much simplify things because when I look at the big consulting firms and when they explain how they do change, it all looks incredibly complicated sometimes. But what you're actually saying when you till it down to simplicity is appealing to reason. This is a good idea because, and I hope you agree with me, or I'm the boss from tomorrow, you do it this way. That's correct. Or we we say we do it this collectively, we do it this way today, but we want to do it different tomorrow, and I want you to get on board with it. So you're saying that no matter how sophisticated the the the slide deck might be about change, it boils down to those three.

SPEAKER_00: 21:05

Absolutely. You know, like I think um oh the Solomon said, you know, there's nothing new under the sun. And that seems to be true for uh for you know change initiatives as well and the way we manage them. But what's important to remember also is that um when we talk about these change strategies, it's always a case of the logic needs to make sense to those that are engaged in the process because as they go through this process, they will make meaning along the way.

SPEAKER_01: 21:33

Yeah, yeah. And if the logic doesn't add up, exactly they all discover it.

SPEAKER_00: 21:38

Exactly. Yeah. So we talk about the way in which people interpret the world around them from a in a logical point of view. That needs to make sense, otherwise, you know, there's what we call cognitive dissonance. You know, there's two ideas that that are opposed to one another and they just create confusion.

SPEAKER_03: 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:54

But what's also um important to remember is that even when we talk about power, now we know that power is not necessarily a negative thing, but when we work with power, it needs to be in a way that enhance the power capacities of others. So, you know, you we need to be empowering in how we um engage with others, even if we we work with such a contentious issue of power.

SPEAKER_02: 22:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:18

And then from a norming point of view, also, you know, we need to norm in a way that recognizes the social, you know, the fact that we're social animals. And I will never behave or seldomly behave in a way that's contradictory to those that are important others to me.

SPEAKER_01: 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:36

Um so if we understand the important others, um, it's also more, you know, it's easier for us to start creating new norms that that fit into that social network. Yeah. Yeah. Um, where the change is being implemented.

SPEAKER_01: 22:48

Yeah, thinking about this cognitive dissonance, it it's it's not just the logic needs to make sense, but it's also the promises made often. Yeah. Uh it's like this this new system can, you know, do XYZ, and then when they discover it's it's not as simple as the sales pitch at the beginning. Right, right. So that that's sort of another thing. Um and and in the midst of all of that, also this idea of norming. Um sometimes you get everybody on board, sometimes people do need to be told we're gonna start on this date, we're gonna start it doing things in this way. Yep. But what I've also s realized is that if change becomes really hard and it's like you know, slugging through the mud type of thing, then people people burn out, their energy drops. Right. So so the more you can like I love what you said earlier, it's not change management, it's supporting the change process. Right. Um I you mentioned that there are significant moments that you identified that are very important to pay attention to. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 23:56

So I think what we've what we've discussed on you know up to this point is the fact that as organizations, when we kick off change, we have a strategy that we want to implement, right? And that that kind of communicates to um those involved in the change the way we should think about it, the way we should feel of it, and also um the the way in which this influences our power capacities. Okay, right. Um, but then we get into you know the the implementation of the change. And typically, and and I'll I'll use a practical example. We've recently been involved with one of the top five banks in Africa, and they were engaging in a digital transformation process. Typical three-stage process. Initially, they got McKinsey consultants in to build the the new digital infrastructure and um also the target operating model. So, in other words, the way the company should be um doing business given the new technology that is now being applied. They so when that was being done, it was very much all right, now how do we logically convince everybody that this is a good idea and that whatever um processes we're putting into place now you know is representing the best ways of working in this context, right? And then the actual um the physical implementation started, and I think one aspect that we often disregard is that we do business often in a heavily regulated context. So, particularly when you're looking at a banking and financial services industry, you know, regulation is is quite significant.

SPEAKER_01: 25:28

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 25:29

And that's when you'll typically see top-down, forcing it down your throat type of initiatives being implemented. So, for example, um in the uh the digital transformation that we were involved in, there comes a time where people need to be placed into new positions. Yeah. And that's typically governed in many parts of the world through um very strict labor legislation. So there you can't have a situation where you now, you know, norm and do all kinds of you know engagements, etc. It's really a case of you know, there's a specific uh regulatory framework for um putting people in new jobs, and you have to follow that. And if you don't, you know, you can disrail the change even at that early stage, because you know, you'll have the regulators coming in saying, look, you know, you didn't do this in a fair way, for example. Uh, and then lastly, you know, we now get to working in this new environment, and that's where the norming becomes important. What you'll typically see is uh you know um CEOs will start applying a strategy where they have lots of um touch points, where they engage with employees, where employees engage with customers to now solidify the way in which they start uh behaving within this new system. So that's how these change strategies come in. But getting back to your question on the moments, so what we found is that when that initial uh strategy is being talked about, um people do one or three things. They either suppress what they hear, specifically if it really is very different to what they either feel, think, or want to see. They um engage in it um productively, so you know they they start acting in it innovatively, really. Um and or, and typically in most cases, they exploit what they hear. So, for example, when we're standing around the um the water cooler and we discuss this thing that's coming up, they'll position it in such a way that it it really enhances their own social network. Yeah, so me and my buddies, how are we gonna survive what's coming up? Another change is coming up. You know, if we've just had one two months ago, now there's another big change. Now, how are we gonna survive this? And that's that's typically the conversations that are taking place around the water coolers.

SPEAKER_03: 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:44

Now, once the implementation starts, you see individuals now deciding, you know, how am I going to react?

SPEAKER_01: 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:54

And here we bring in the concept of change supportive behavior or how people support change. And that's really important. If you look at many of the conversations, the books that you read about change management, um, it's it's typically phrased around resistance to change. How do we overcome resistance to change? So we've taken a different approach, and and it started around 2018 where there's been a recognition of that people actually like change. You know, the old adage that they don't, as I've mentioned earlier, it's it's it's false. Yeah, they enjoy change, but they enjoy change that they can engage in in a way that makes sense to them. Yeah. Yeah. So change resistance is a positive thing. Um, being accepting of a change can be good as long as it's not just somebody that complies. Yeah. Yeah. When people disengage from the change process, that's not good at all. It's dangerous. Uh when they start innovating, that's actually what we're after. Because you know, then they they do our change management role for us, if you if you want to look at that. So it's putting a positive psychology spin, if you want, on this whole idea of of change resistance or how people react to change. Um, so when when that kind of change supportive behavior is developing, um, so again, um, this is influenced by, and and I want to bring into conversation um, you know, the whole idea of someone's worldviews or the way that they look at something and how it works, right? And it's heavily influenced by their worldviews. Um and at that stage, um someone would either start innovating or they will resist. And funny enough, one of the preferred reactions to change is change resistance. Uh huh. And the reason is that when I resist change, I'm gonna hopefully, and typically I'll be vocal about it. Yeah. So it's good to be, you know, for for those that are engaging in the process to be vocal in the way in which they engage with this process because then you actually find out what they're really thinking.

SPEAKER_01: 29:54

Yeah, yeah. Um and there's also energy there.

SPEAKER_00: 29:57

And there's energy, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 29:58

And not like, you know, submitting or walking away.

SPEAKER_00: 30:02

Exactly, exactly. Um, and there's conversation. Yeah. And um very often that when the change strategy is announced, you know, we have a big town hall meeting and the CEO stands up and he's announcing the strategy and the process that will follow, um, you get this, you know, either exploiting or suppressing, etc. But when we're now starting engaging in the process, um we we really want people to start voicing their um their understanding of what's going on. Yeah, even if they voice it in a negative manner, look, you know, this is gonna work. For example, in the banking and in a digital transformation process we were just involved in, a big um uh you know conversation was around, and particularly because this was a commercial and investment bank, you know, my clients are private clients, they want to see a banker. They want a personal relationship with a physical banker.

SPEAKER_03: 30:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:55

Now them engaging in a digital process through an app creates distance. It creates distance. And they don't have that. Now that again is a fallacy. Yeah. Because if you go and spend you know, go and speak to many even big investors, they don't mind engaging with a with a digital individual if you want, like a bot or something like that. As long as what they're getting through that process is value adding. So they want to see value added to their investment through through you know, through advice, through managing their investments, whatever the case might be. Right. So resistance is actually a good thing. Um, so then thirdly, once I've decided how I'm going to behave, right, in which way I'm going to support this process, um, I then start integrating or the you know the the new environment, the new ways of working in the way in which I conduct myself within the role that I'm placed.

SPEAKER_02: 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:49

Right. So I either maintain my old ways, if I don't agree, and um, and I've not been able to become part of the change, or I start integrating new ways of working um in my role. Or, and again, what we really want to see is I start innovating. So I even change my role. Yeah, and that's where continuous um change now starts coming in. And what we really want to get to is individuals that um play out the change process in their roles, but continuously change how they do things, as you know, and and that really is agility, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 32:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So each one of those keywords that you mentioned in those stages or in those moments, they are they are emotional moments, psychological, cultural moments, they are process moments all at the same time. And that's why you know what you said earlier, you're you're supporting the change process because you can't look at this from an engineering point of view. Because you you some things you can predict, but other things you can't. And I'm I'm thinking of maybe a silly example, but um uh you know, when when our kids were smaller, um, you know, some of the mums that my wife used to hang out with, they would complain, yeah, my kid doesn't want to eat vegetables and etc. Um and what what we realized is that well, if it gets made in the kitchen by somebody else and then put on your plate and this is good for you, you have to eat this, right? Then most kids uh would initially say, No, I don't want this, and they they would go against it. So my wife came up with a clever strategy. Most young kids never get to uh actually cut their own vegetables or food. So my wife said, Okay, two things you're gonna learn to use a knife today, and you're gonna build a dinosaur.

SPEAKER_00: 33:44

Right. Well, that sounds fun.

SPEAKER_01: 33:46

So it's like, oh, that's interesting. They were building a dinosaur with vegetables. Right. So they had the design and they would use uh homers to paste it together, and and then of course the moment came to eat the dinosaur. Right. And most kids did because they were involved in the process, they were learn, they were treated like adults and allowed to use a knife in the kitchen, and they built a dinosaur themselves. So it was a positive psychology approach to coming alongside a dilemma, right? And I still remember some of the mom saying, How did you get my daughter to eat vegetables? And it was coming alongside them on their terms in an exciting and creative, innovative way.

SPEAKER_00: 34:29

Exactly. Yeah, and as I know kids, you probably had some of the kids very heavily focused on how I'm gonna exactly cut my dinosaur, and others would be looking over their shoulder to see, well, how does my buddy cut his dinosaur? I want to do it in the same way. Yeah, and others would be thinking, Well, my mom said while I'm cutting dinosaurs, I should be smiling. So, you know, the normative side behind it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it comes naturally to us to you know to really do this as a as a social group. Yeah. And yeah, if we can make it fun, yeah, absolutely. And you know, I guess if you want to translate that back into you know, business speak, if we can make it engaging, yeah. That's really what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01: 35:09

Yeah. Now you already alluded to the idea that worldviews, cultural worldviews are important in this process. Uh a lot of focus in the past has been on the psychology of change. Right. Yeah. But you seem to um bring to light this idea that the the cultural worldviews are important. Can you can you say a bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00: 35:30

Yes, very much so. Um, so again, um if we think of the traditional way in which change is being executed, and again, my focus is on large organizations, right? So you have a dominant narrative that is proclaimed, if you want, from the CEO's office. This is the way we're going to do digital.

SPEAKER_01: 35:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:51

Now, for example, in the in the case that I was recently involved in, they talked about warm digital. Okay. That was the labeling for the way in which they wanted to do digital. So we're yeah, what this is. And the concept of warm digital was just it's a digital process where we work very closely with our clients. Okay. And because we're in such close contact, and even though it's now uh you know facilitated through um some form of a digital channel, we we maintain that close contact and we learn how to do so using digital channels. Um, which is interesting because um I often, you know, I've I've recently um uh visited one of the branches, and uh what that sometimes translates to is there is now a um uh you know a banking employee that sits with me as I use the app, which they are interesting applications of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but so you can imagine if you have an individual with a specific way of looking at the world, of viewing the world, um you know, proclaiming that dominant narrative about how we're now going to do things. Um that's going to be, he's going to be using or she might use very different, you know, very specific language. Um and you know, that lands, but in very different ways. Yeah. And and I've seen that working in so many cases where I was responsible for guiding the CEO or the board chairman on how am I going to now announce this change, um, and even imposing my own way of looking at the world into what I was recommending he or she would use when they announce a change initiative. Um so it's I think it's really important to consider that there are different lenses that we wear when we look at the world. And you know, that's something that you and I, I think, through many years of working in different parts of the world, I mean, we've we've we've it's not something that we just know is true, it's something that we actively you know uh uh try and force and get into the you know both academia and and uh practice because we've seen it to be true. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 38:01

And maybe, maybe just uh, you know, if people have listened to this podcast before, they know the three colours of worldview inside out and they've heard it applied in many fields. Right. So just for the sake of our audience, uh just uh, you know, uh in the same way as you said, okay, change management is driven by three main strategies or approaches. Uh the three colours of worldview is all about uh either I wear the lens of doing the right thing, avoid doing the wrong thing. So we call that innocence guilt. Yep. Uh or doing that which is honorable, avoiding that which is shameful. So that's the honor-shame lens. And then the third lens is doing that which which allows my base of power, my base of control or influence to maintain or grow, right, and not get into a situation where I have something to fear or something to be anxious about. Right. So we call that power fear. Right. Um, so how do how do understanding those and utilizing those, how does that make a difference? Uh especially thinking those three moments you mentioned earlier, but in the larger uh change change way of thinking or designing.

SPEAKER_00: 39:11

Well, Marku, the the interesting thing is that if we take a step back and we go back to change strategies, and we mentioned that the the typical change strategies that are being used today are still the same as the ones that were developed in the 60s. And those are all about logic, which is innocent skills. Power, yeah, which is powerful. And it's got a lot to do with norming, yeah, which is honor shame. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:40

So it's about the the collect the group together deciding we're gonna we do it like this today, we want to do it like that tomorrow. So that's very much collective honor shame oriented, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:53

And and that that that kind of penny dropped uh to me uh many years ago. Um, you know, but soon after I started working with you and I um, you know, I got to know the the basics behind the three colors of worldview, and I started practicing it with you, um, it it it really, you know, the penny dropped to me that look, this is really what change is all about. Um and and you know, going back into the great thinkers of change management, that's what they said as well. Yeah. Ago before you and I were even born. And um and that really excited me. And as you know, I I kept that interpretive frame in my mind and started working with you know many CEOs, many board chairs, um, many change practitioners across the world, I just saw that working out in so many different ways where typically you know that the the chains agent will be looking at the world through one of those lenses. And you know, you'd have a um even if in a very homogeneous kind of environment, um, you'd have different different interpretations of what it means to be logically sound.

SPEAKER_01: 41:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:18

Yeah. Um, but in a in a kind of multicultural environment, um, it's not only different interpretations of one of those views, but it's also many different views being uh held by by you know change recipients, if we can use that word. Yeah. Um and so what I've discovered, and and I don't think it's new, it's just what I've discovered and what I've been trying to build into change theory um through my research is really to recognize that it's necessary to break that dominant narrative, whatever the narrative is, whether it's normative or whether it's power-based or whether it's more logic related, is to break that that that dominant narrative so that when that lands um with your team that you're trying to support through this process, that it doesn't really matter which um you know lens they are wearing, you're communicating that in such a way that all of those would make sense.

SPEAKER_01: 42:15

Yeah, yeah. I I'm thinking of an example. Uh one of one of the people in our network, he was asked to come and do uh the security training for a new airport that was being built. Right. And he had successfully done that in another part of the world. So he was brought in and he discovered people were late in the classes, people were on their phones, uh, they weren't paying attention. And these were supposed to be the core of the whole security apparatus at the airport. Right. So it's a big thing. Right. And he said, What do I do? And uh we we talked about it, and um he uh I said to him, would you mind showing me the list of of the people in the class?

SPEAKER_02: 42:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

So uh we went through the list and uh thinking about you know who is there hierarchy in the in the in this group of people? Because they were we knew they were selected to become part of this important uh initiative. And uh we discovered uh tribal names and there was a tribal hierarchy in the class. So uh we we honed in on one gentleman and said, I think he's probably tribally and positionally one of the most significant people in the room. And uh he uh he went to this this gentleman and said, uh listen, uh I know all of you have been invited to become part of this important thing, and um it's uh it's uh a big deal for for the city to have a whole new airport. And uh uh but my role is to make sure that all of you are uh able to do your job with excellence and to make sure security at the airport is uh is an example to the world. Right, right. He said, But I have a problem right now, and uh and uh he explained it, and the gentleman said, Don't worry, sir, I'll take care of it. Next time class was in session, he stood up, he said, Here's what's gonna happen from now on. And uh uh there was he instilled the rules on phones, he instilled the rules on what it meant to participate in terms of time, in terms of you know, doing your assignments, engaging in the class. And because he was the person they respected, they honored, but also positionally in the structure locally, he was listened to. Right. And the outside teacher would never have been able to accomplish that. Right, right. But that's when the class took off and they had an incredible graduation, and they became the core of this the security leadership team at the airport. Yeah, but it was totally going the wrong direction until we we tr we tweaked those moments. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 44:56

I had a conversation with um, interestingly enough, uh an individual at the institution that I'm involved in, um, that's often responsible for university policy. And in a dynamic environment such as South Africa, university policy is constantly changing. And I mean, it's not only in South Africa. I mean, if you think of the US at the moment in other parts of the world, because of geopolitics, things, even in the academic world, is becoming quite interesting. Um, and when I started talking to him about the three colors worldview, worldview approach, cultural worldview approach, his first conversation or his first reply to me was, Well, that is so affirming. And that I found you know, such a um a uh positive just motivator for me um as we go through this process, where he was saying, Well, the fact that you are proposing that we listen to others in a way that they wanted to be listened to, that's extremely affirming. And when we affirm others, we you know we are laying the foundation for a successful process.

SPEAKER_01: 45:57

Right, right. Yeah, that's powerful. So simple, yeah. But so hard to implement. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 46:05

But I I think we you know we can talk about so many different examples of where this has worked well. Yeah. Um but I I mean we just had the example or the opportunity at the recent um Association of International Business Conference here in Dubai to to talk about this. And I think it, you know, the the response we've had was was positive.

SPEAKER_01: 46:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 46:25

Um because it makes a lot of sense, right?

SPEAKER_01: 46:27

And everybody has in some way or another felt the pain of change not working. Yes. Either being in a leadership role, design role, or on the receiving end of it. Absolutely. So there is there's just intuitively people feel that if I'm not being listened to on my terms, or if I'm not if people don't come alongside me in this process on my terms, it it just either it feels really uh uh forced or exactly uh or uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00: 46:56

It's uncomfortable, yeah. But I think what is really important, Marco, is so there is the aspect of recognizing the value of a cultural worldview lens on how we uh both design and implement change. But it's you know, that's just part of the process. I mean, that's like one half of the coin, yeah, right? Yeah, um the recognition of the fact that that's important. But I think what's really important and where we I think can you know add a lot of value to change management and organizational change management, both theory and practice, is that placing tools in the hands of those that need to make change work. So I think one is this recognition, yeah. But two is also providing a language that others can use to talk about this in a way that is non-threatening, um, you know, that it really opens the the discussion um for everybody to be able to voice their opinion. Yeah, yeah. And and actively asking for it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then thirdly, I think what's really important is then to provide tools where um I am in a way almost forced to make a contribution, you know, so that I interpret things correctly, or I'm free to talk about them openly. Yeah. And I also understand ways in which I can now incorporate others' views on things in the way that I do business. Yeah. So those tools are really important. And I think you know, that is a challenge for us going forward is how do we both you know apply tools that we already have, but also go create new ones to make you know cultural agility work in the workplace. Yeah. And also in the change process.

SPEAKER_01: 48:57

And it does require, though, space to be created for it. I'm I'm reminded of the world of economics. I I studied economics and and in the you know, there's a term called econs. Right. So assuming that that mm people are rational, non-emotive when it comes to making financial decisions. Right. And that was debunked. But it took a while for the economists to make room for social economics, for Daniel Kahneman's work, for instance. And he he trailblaz that that space, and and most economics today is is taking into account that we are emotional, psychological, cultural human beings, and it has an impact on how we make decisions about money and assets and buying and selling, etc. So, how do you create that space in in the change management world? Right. Uh you're at a university, for instance, in in Cape Town. Um where do you think the change of change management, where where does it have to go? Where does it have to happen?

SPEAKER_00: 50:00

Well, I think there's there's there's two forums, if you want, that we need to be able to speak to in order to create the space. The one is the academic audience, and I think that is important, not so much because we want for things to be published in academic journals or such, but when that happens, you create the opportunity for other academics that are responsible for training our managers for them to incorporate that into their classwork. Yeah. So what you then find is, you know, the way in which, or the preferred way of teaching, if you want, in business schools currently is all based on case-based learning. So if we provide cases to academics that are um that are sound, that they can use in the classroom to change, you know, to train um uh students, uh specifically graduate students, MBA students, on um the way the best way in which to manage change, you know, we're making a very valuable contribution. Yeah. But then on the other side as well is to both accredit um or firstly develop tools. So it's not only the way of thinking, if you want, or the theory, but also the tools um that we can accredit individuals in and make those tools available to a as broad an audience as possible. Yeah. So that when that MBA student jumps out of business school and he suddenly gets appointed as CEO of a of a startup, um, he or she can use those tools to apply into cultural agility in the workplace immediately.

SPEAKER_02: 51:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:27

Um so I think you know, we we we need to focus on both those areas. I think we've been very good at doing that from a practitioner point of view. Um, and we saw the last 20 years, Knowledgeworks has been instrumental in bringing cultural agility into the workplace. But I don't think we've been all that good at doing so from an academic point of view. It's true. Yeah. You know, I know we as KnowledgeWorks have a lot of intellectual property and written written about that extensively. Um, but we now need to find a way to you know to put that together and organize that in a way um that a an academic at in a university in Waikato or in Dubai or in Cape Town or wherever the place might be can take it into their classroom and they don't have to jump for all kinds of hoops um because it's not necessarily being academically written or validated. And that's really the process that we'd engage in that.

SPEAKER_01: 52:20

That's exciting. It's uh a new opportunity to create space for intercultural agility. But also I I love those three moments that you mentioned that it is it is you know, maybe even more than three-dimensional because there's so many facets. Absolutely, yeah. Um the other thing to think about is uh as you were explaining, you know, the way forward in academia, uh there is, of course, a whole body of knowledge, and there's a whole bunch of experts on change from different universities around the world. What what's their response being as you were talking about with your work?

SPEAKER_00: 52:57

I think the um there is an understanding of the fact that um change management should be done in a more, or what you know, the term the academics use is a dialogic way or the dialogic approach.

SPEAKER_02: 53:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 53:11

Um so in other words, just don't force things top down in you know onto people, but have a conversation about uh whatever needs to be changed with them. Yeah. Right. Um, but there's been a dichotomy. Okay. It's been like either the one or the other. Now, very recently, in uh in one of the, well not one of the, but what's what's regarded as the academic journal for change management, uh an article was published where the point was made that look, maybe we look need to look at a combination of both. And what was said is that, and it and it used a very simple example of Western thought and Taoist beliefs. And how those are so different, yeah. But you know, when you look at an international business transaction, you get people that are that have been schooled and raised in both of those schools of thought, bringing them together, and there's a lot of kind of cross-pollination taking place that informs people's worldviews. Yeah. So the good thing is that um initially, when I started talking about this in the academic circles um about four years ago, there was a misunderstanding of what does worldview mean. So I think over the last few years, we've had lots of conversations and you know, we've kind of settled on, unfortunately, I was not the only one thinking about it. There's been others from different perspectives um also thinking along the same lines, maybe using different terminology, yeah, but it's now starting to settle on all right, a cultural worldview or what we call an underlying worldview. Yeah. Um assuming the fact that we all agree that we're social beings. So that then kind of removes the cultural word because you know, we we accept that we are social beings, we socially construct our world within a social network, yeah. And that really is colourful.

SPEAKER_01: 55:00

That's why that dialogue approach is is so important. It is, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:04

But the uh you know the the pushback to that has been that look fine, it makes logical sense that we should talk to one another. Yeah, but why then, if we look at most large change initiatives, and as we know them, a lot of them fail, why do these still use that what they call the diagnostic approach? So it's something we need to change. We make a plan and then we implement that plan um from a using a top-down method on it. Why is it still being done like that in most cases?

SPEAKER_01: 55:33

Yeah, yeah. It's more a process engineering approach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. So uh I I think also, and that and that's been the danger with anything like this, any you know, initiative or any methodology, you you say here is how you need to do it. And what I hear you say, well, there are key critical moments and there is m approaches to consider, but at the same time, you can't quantify this is how it's supposed to be done. It's it's much more fluid, I think, is what I hear you say. Absolutely, yeah. And that's where that's where being interculturally agile, having been practicing that for 25 years, uh, we've been involved in change initiatives for 20 years without the level of of depth of insight that you've been researching. Um but how could people tag on to this? Uh, if people are listening to this podcast and they say, wow, that sounds refreshing. Uh I would love to explore uh bringing this to my team or to my organization, or uh or I'm at a university and we want a fresh wind uh in terms of change management and how we equip our students. So where can people go? What would you suggest?

SPEAKER_00: 56:53

Well, I think uh you know a good place to start um it would be to you know to just look at knowledgebooks website. That'd be a very good place to start.

SPEAKER_01: 57:01

And we published one article on your work already as a precursor. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 57:06

And I think you know, uh recently we started talking about um you know these these concepts, the three colours worldview, 12 dimensions, cultural agility within a change management context. But I mean, we've uh you know, there's such a lot of uh material available already that talks about this in a in a in a more general way.

SPEAKER_02: 57:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 57:27

Um so that is a good place to start. Um, you know, like they say, start at the very beginning. Yeah. Um but yes, uh, you know, we've put together that article a little a little while ago. Um that can give you a maybe a you know a nice short precy on what we've discussed today. But I think um, you know, the the tools that we've been talking about that's necessary to make this work, I think a lot of those are already available within the Knowledge Works um tool set that we make available to our clients. Um so there are already tools available, and not only ours, there are also other tools that others have developed that can be equally uh you know applied equally uh in a successful manner. But as long as we recognize that there are different worldviews at play, that there are key moments in the change process where we can influence and support um the success of the of the process, yeah, and that people look at the world in different ways. And we need to recognize that and break that dominant narrative that we typically use, particularly in large organizations, when we try and change things. This is the best way to do digital, yeah. This is the best way to attract new clients, this is the best way to develop new products, yeah, yeah. And turn around and say, all right, we think, well, what do you think? Yeah. Okay. Now, seeing as though we of all the options on the table now, let's chart a way forward where we will continue to be engaged with one another as we develop new ways of working around this.

SPEAKER_01: 59:00

So on the on the one hand, I I I can see a a richer way of doing change. Yes. On the other hand, it it opens up another level of complexity, which requires you to be tooled up and equipped more. Yes. So more tools in your toolbox. Right. Uh, but I I do you know, I do believe uh having intuitively practiced a lot of the things that you were explaining, uh I know it works. Uh and I'm excited that it's it's being codified and and uh turned into something that others can can acquire and and implement.

SPEAKER_00: 59:35

Absolutely. Yeah, and Marco, if we had time, I think you know we can probably have a day-long workshop, not just a podcast, talking through all the various examples that we've seen working across you know globally. I mean, I've not been involved in many things that you've been doing over the last few years. We've been doing a lot of things together, yeah. Um, and I've been doing being involved in in interesting territories where um and and you know working with in contexts that are quite unique but also quite or highly emotive. You know, I I just a simple example, and it's it's one that in a way saddens me because of what's going on in Ukraine at the moment, but also was probably one of the most exciting times of my life when I was involved um in the Ukraine in establishing what they call the deposit guarantee fund to protect um consumers within the banking sector. And many of the banks were failing in Ukraine at that stage, and the government then stepped in and said, Well, we need to uh guarantee deposits being made.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:39

And so a highly emotive environment. Yeah. Um, and one that's also prone very much to corruption, um, and where we've recognized that even in a what what one would think was a homogenous society, you know, the Ukrainian environment, um, which it is not, um, you know, leading individuals. Through um uh um bringing banks together, closing ones that don't work, selling off the bad assets, um, leveraging the good ones, um, uh incorporating people um into a corporate governance framework that now would uh guide um the Ukrainian banking sector into the future, um you know, dealing with large amounts of layoffs within the sector because of all this amalgamation taking place. Um and together with that, all the politics around you know what just uh geopolitically what was happening to the country at that stage. Yeah, it makes it so complex. And being able there to really um create room for a conversation about what's happening now, yeah, I think was the starting this you know the starting point for that process to be executed effectively, and it was. Yeah. Um so yeah, no, they there's there's we've had lots of opportunity to do this, and uh I hope we get able to talk about that at some point.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:56

No, it's beautiful, and uh maybe we should do a storytelling time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:00

Yes, that sounds like a good idea.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:02

As you're talking, I'm um coming up, you know, I'm thinking of lots of examples where either successfully or or not. Even the failure stories, of course, are really important where you learn those lessons over time. Uh well, I really have enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much. Um, and uh, if people want to get in contact with you, your details will be in the notes section as well. And uh we mentioned that one article, which will uh we will make sure that it gets linked in the notes, but also what George mentioned. Uh there's a lot of baseline material, understanding intercultural agility and complexity. Uh, tool yourself up with those freely available, uh, or otherwise uh reach out to us and we would love to start a conversation with you. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel, or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. If any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you, you'll find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you'd like to learn more about getting certified in intercultural intelligence and how you can become more interculturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at Knowledgeworks.com. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, Shelly Reinhardt, Rajita Raj, Nita Rodriguez, Karen Condone, and special thanks to Matthew Blankenberg for audio production, Rosalind Raj for scheduling, and Caleb Strauss for helping produce this podcast.