SPEAKER_01: 0:00

It shows this connection that until we have a word for something, we we don't perceive it, we don't we don't interact with it as much. So our language uh helps it basically adds colors to the palette that we use in life. And so even though a lot of these skills may be picked up intuitively, there's still huge, huge benefit to adding to the color palette.

SPEAKER_04: 0:25

Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility Podcast, where we bring you insights and stories from some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners working around the world to help you become interculturally imaginable and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Michael Blankenberg, International Director of Knowledge Group, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. So, Chris O'Shaughnessy, I'm so glad that you're here in person in Dubai. So in person, it's exciting. In person is exciting. Yeah, it's good to be back. It's gonna be back. Absolutely, absolutely. Um we are uh gonna be again talking about one of your uh expert subjects of expertise, TCKs, Third Culture Kids. Um, but and we're gonna be talking about culture creation and how to do that as a young person in family, in life, launching into the world. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you for being here. Uh now I said you were on our podcast three and a half years ago, and uh by the way, that is still our uh most listened to podcasts. So which I feel very privileged for. Very privileged. It's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Uh and it shows that it is an important topic. That you know there are plenty of TCKs in the world, CCKs. How many are there, roughly, give or take?

SPEAKER_01: 2:22

Uh do you know? I've heard there's there's different reports on it and things like that, but I think I've heard up to 250 million-ish, which yeah, would be would be quite the that would be quite the nation if we if we all banded together.

SPEAKER_04: 2:35

Totally. Well, uh, some people might have remember you from the previous podcast or might have seen you online or even uh live in person in in one of your keynotes. But tell us a little bit more about yourself before we dive into the subject.

SPEAKER_01: 2:48

Yeah, of course. Uh well, I am uh third culture kid myself, and have the sincere privilege of being able to chat uh at schools, uh businesses, universities, colleges, government agencies, militaries, really anyone who will let me chat uh about third culture kids, um, about issues of identity, uh cross-cultural skills. Uh third culture kids touch on so many of those things. And a lot of what we have learned about third culture kids has application on a much, much wider scale um as the world continues to globalize. So there's uh there's a lot to learn from them. So I'm I'm glad it was the most listened to episode last time. And you know, I'm biased, but I think there's there's good reason for that. I think we can learn a lot from that.

SPEAKER_04: 3:36

I still remember that episode, uh, and it was it was just not just a good amount of fun, but also it I learned a lot from it. So uh even for me, it was memorable, absolutely. Um, but you already used you said I'm a third culture kid. Now, you don't really look like a kid anymore. So sadly it's true. Maybe on the inside. Sadly it's true.

SPEAKER_01: 3:59

I know, probably probably more accurate to say I was a third culture kid, I would now be an adult third culture kid. And in the field, there is there is definitely discussion on terminology. Um, some people prefer the term global nomad. Uh, personally, I think it's I think it's worth making a distinction uh between those who grow up as a third culture kid and those who enter into that uh kind of cross-cultural lifestyle as an adult, because there are some slight differences. But in general, the very, very quick version of what makes a third culture kid a third culture kid is it's a combination of two main ingredients um during your developmental years, influenced by multiple cultures, and a higher than normal degree of transience. Those would be the two the two major ingredients that form a third culture kid. So the word third is not that important then. Sort of. In fact, that causes confusion because I've I've had third culture kids, you know, get very excited and say, Well, actually, I'm a seventh culture kid. My father is Argentinian, my mother is Venezuelan, I was born in France, I lived in, but that's not quite how it works. The uh the reason that they uh they originally came up sort of with that numbering system was the idea that uh your first culture, and everybody has at least one first culture, would be sort of your official or your passport or your paperwork culture. So uh, and some people do have multiple paperwork cultures, including yourself. Including myself, you know, I'm just working on more. Uh and then the second culture would be experiential cultures, and again, some people have more than one experiential culture. And the idea is that the combination of those two uh creates a third culture, and that third culture is not just a mix, um, but it's actually uh it I like to think of it as sort of a hallway that you can use to transit in between the different rooms that make you who you are. So if your cultures could be represented by rooms, then it's not just that multiple cultural influences, you know, swirl together to form this mix. Um, what's interesting about third culture kids is often they have to keep those cultures separate for their lives to work. So the third culture is the hallway that sort of branches all of the other cultures.

SPEAKER_04: 6:20

I love that as a metaphor. So different cultural rooms in my hallway, moving around between those rooms, code switching along the way. Yeah. Um, yeah, but fascinating. Now, since we're on terminology, I think it's important before we dive in. I've also heard people say I'm a third culture adult, for instance. Uh is that okay?

SPEAKER_01: 6:41

Yeah, I think so, yes. Um, and you know, there there are there are very clever people who've had strokey beard and scratchy head meetings and lots of discussion on these sorts of things. But I do find that there is a lot of overlap between third culture kids, third culture adults, because in all honesty, I would argue just about every year is a developmental year. I think that you could be well into your 40s, hopefully. And still hopefully and still be changing and developing. So uh so there are. I think there are third culture adults who um who have again those two elements multiple cultural influences and a higher than normal degree of transition. Uh, but if you do that, I would say once you're an adult, there are some differences. And so uh a load of overlap, if we were to Venn diagram it, a load of overlap between third culture kids and third culture adults, but there are some some distinctions uh as well. And uh I I've learned this, I do parent presentations, and uh I picked up on the fact that almost every single one I do, uh, you know, we talk about parenting third culture kids and the uniqueness of growing up in in that experience, and uh almost a hundred percent of the time a parent would come up to me afterward and basically say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, my kids, whatever, that's great for them. But me, what about me? I feel these things. And and it's true, there's there's a lot of overlap even with third culture adults.

SPEAKER_04: 8:04

One one more technical question, then. I've also heard the term CCK. Yes. Cross-cultural kid. I know.

SPEAKER_01: 8:10

Is there a difference? There is. There's a load. There's a load. So cross-cultural kids would be multiple cultural influences, but without that higher than normal degree of transition. So one way to look at it is uh CCK's cross-cultural kids is you know a bigger umbrella. Okay. It could include uh migrants, it could include multiracial or multicultural families, um, any sort of situation where you're being influenced by multiple cultures, again, during your developmental years. That's for the kids. A subsection of that would be when you add a higher than normal degree of transition to a CCK, moving to another country, for instance, or another part of your country, or another part of your country, but it more than a higher degree of transition would would need a little more than than a move. So, for instance, uh migrating somewhere, you're not really intending on a lot of transience. If you migrate to a country, the idea is to stay there.

SPEAKER_03: 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:08

So your your transience is minimal. So that higher than normal degree of transience, um, that's the key factor that makes a third culture kid different from a cross-cultural kid. Right. So uh multiple cultural influences, but with a little more stability, CCK, with a higher degree of transience, TCK. And it's worth pointing out, since I'm already on the on the roll here, that the assumption then would be that third culture kids move around all the time. And that is true, but there's also a lot of third culture kids who aren't geographically transient. You can stay in one place, but still be in a very transient environment.

SPEAKER_04: 9:49

Like our kids, for instance, in Dubai.

SPEAKER_01: 9:51

Exactly. So even though you know you you may have been in Dubai for a long time, Dubai is a very transient place. International schools are inherently transient. Even a school with, let's say, a low turnover of 20% per year means that you could stay at that school, you know, your whole educational career, but that you still could lose your entire, you know, close group of friends in a five-year span. So the transience happens even if you're not the one transient, if you're in a transient location.

SPEAKER_04: 10:22

And as I listen to you, it it also seems that a lot of cosmopolitan cities, the kids growing up in those cities, what we're about to talk about is probably very relevant for them and for their parents.

SPEAKER_01: 10:35

Yeah, I would agree. And I do, I think there's a lot of aspects that we're seeing, and uh, you know, it's not even my idea. There have been clever people have been saying it since the 1980s that a lot of what we have learned about the third culture kid experience is becoming more and more uh widely applicable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 10:54

So um you uh joined uh one of our intercultural intelligence certifications a few years back. You've sort of marinated that into what you're doing. Um at the same time, you're working with people who almost I would say intuitively pick up skills to navigate culture to ebb and flow with what's happening around them, to adjust to it, but very often it's quite intuitive. So, how do those two come together? On the one hand, uh the the ICI framework, structured framework with assessments and everything else, and and then you have your target audience, so to speak, yeah, who just ebb and flow with things and they go with it. But if you ask them, can you explain why you did this and not that? They often can't.

SPEAKER_01: 11:45

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 11:46

Uh so how do those two worlds come together?

SPEAKER_01: 11:48

Well, I think they they come together with uh a phrase that I stole from one of my professors, and I'm just gonna keep using it because it's such a good phrase. And when I was in university, one of my professors said, you know, one of the best things you can do in life is learn to process intellectually what you do intuitively. Uh because as soon as we give language and framework, as soon as we take something internal, and intuition is is fast, it's internal, um, you know, it it just happens. But if you take the time to pull intuition out, give it language, you can dissect it, you can improve it, you can communicate it, you can do so much more with it. And I think you said it well, for a lot of third culture kids, their experience is relatively intuitive. Um, I mean, I'll give there's a family I use as an example all the time of that idea that it's that it's a hallway. Uh, I know a German family who live in Tokyo and they send their son to an international school. So when he wakes up in the morning, he's in the German room of his cultural existence. You know, he speaks German with his family, so they have brochen for breakfast and everything is Wunba. Uh but then he takes the Tokyo Metro to get to school. And the language changes, but so many other things change. What's considered polite? Uh yeah, personal space changes, you know. For for they say for Western Europeans, uh they prefer about an elbow length of personal space. North Americans, it's a whole arm length because they have a load of space, but on the Tokyo Metro, there's no space, just none. So that changes. Uh so then he has to step out of that room when he arrives at school and into the international school culture because culture is more than just nationality. Uh, and once again, the language changes, but so many things change. What's considered polite, the authority structure, personal space. And the idea is that third culture kids learn to adapt as they move between these different rooms. And so in his life, those rooms have to stay separate for everything to work. If he mixes them up, things get weird. But a load of that will happen intuitively. And so, for example, you know, you might you might find that uh that the their son automatically uh adjusts how close he stands to people based on who he's around. He probably doesn't even know he's doing it. Yeah, um uh personal space is actually a really good example. I've had families who've said, look, when we when we fly back uh to the US, if they're from the US and they live overseas, they said, when we fly back to the US, like we we've had to tell our kids you you have to don't stand so close to people in line, that upsets Americans. And that's an example of of an uh uh an intentional sort of thing. But a lot of those will happen intuitively. But if you can pull those out, if you can be to explain and sort of reflect on and go, why is it that I do that? And it's oh, it's because I'm adjusting to personal space, um, speech patterns, how confrontational you are, um, even expressions of personality traits like being an introvert or an extrovert may look different in different cultural contexts. And so being able to pull out what's why you're doing what you're doing means you can refine it further. And that's the beauty of things like 12 Dimensions and Three Colours Worldview, and all of those tools provide language and framework so that you can take what you may have picked up on intuitively further. And even for people who didn't have an environment where intuition would teach those things, you can still learn them, you know, through those tools and frameworks. So repeat that quote again. Oh, which one? Did I say something good? The one about intuition. Oh yes. Uh, that one of the best things we can do in life is learn to process intellectually what we do intuitively.

SPEAKER_04: 15:37

Why do TCKs intuitively navigate culture so well? What what what are they picking up as they grow up that other kids don't?

SPEAKER_01: 16:27

Well, the the uniqueness of having multiple cultural inputs basically forces you to adapt. It forces you uh to have to be observant and to get culture. If you grow up in a monocultural situation, you know, when you're young, you're you're forming your behavior, you're forming all sorts of norms, and that's easier to do in a monocultural situation because you're having a consistent response reflected back to you. So if you behave in an acceptable way, universally what's given back to you is yes, that's good. And if you behave in an unacceptable way, what's universally given back to you is no, you can't do that here. If you grow up with multiple cultural inputs, that is a it can be some very inconsistent messaging. So, for instance, table manners, all sorts of things may change drastically. So your behavior receives a different response depending on what cultural context you're in. So, what it forces is this delineation. It forces a bit more of a bit more of a reflection, even if it's just intuitive, to say, okay, it's okay to do this in this context, it's not okay to do it in this context. And so, and that adaptability uh again uh occurs intuitively because we want to belong, we want to be accepted, we need to fit in socially, and so having to do that with all of these extra inputs and extra systems forces a higher degree of observation because you suddenly have to be aware. Uh, and again, even if it's intuitively you intuitively you have to process out, oh, why was that okay to do at home? But that was really upsetting, you know, out in in public or what have you. So it is, it's those the multiple multiple types of feedback uh that you get in a in a cross-cultural context.

SPEAKER_04: 18:19

Sounds weird, maybe, but has anybody ever done MRI scan research on TCKs versus other kids?

SPEAKER_01: 18:25

That's a that's a good question. I don't think they have. Oh, I don't think they have. Which it would be interesting because they there are they've done f MRI scans to help with uh to to read empathy in mirror neurons. And uh I sociology is fun because sociology is really just an excuse to electrocute people, is what I've learned. Most sociological studies, someone's getting shocked. And they did, they they they electrocuted someone to cause pain, uh, and then sort of scanned and read what parts of your brain light up when you're in pain. They did the same uh a scan of someone watching someone in pain, and some of the same parts of the brain light up. So we attribute that to to mirror neurons, and to a degree, uh it's saying that as humans, we've we have a neurological there's wiring to make us empathetic. That my brain registers a little bit of pain for me just watching someone else in pain. What would be interesting is we've we've said and we've found through research and various studies, TCKs tend to be a little more empathetic, probably because they do have to read other people's responses because they have to they have to be agile, they have to adapt how they behave in different contexts. There's no consistent system for them. So it would be interesting to see if we could measure higher higher empathetic rates in TCKs. Just just give us give us an MRI machine. Yeah, but what don't electrocute us, don't do that.

SPEAKER_04: 19:54

What it also reminds me of in our perception management work, which we that's our foundational work in in equipping people, but it almost sounds like uh TCKs already have uh have a head start. Yeah. Uh so we talk about um perceiving yourself, perceiving the other, uh perceiving what is relationally trying to happen, and perceiving the context in which that's trying to happen. And some of the examples you just gave, it seems that almost all four of them they are their their wiring is is more alive, maybe? I don't know. Perceiving self, the other, the relationship, the context.

SPEAKER_01: 20:35

Yeah, possibly. Um but I do still think that if that's all happening intuitively, and I would argue. That it probably is because that's what they have to do to survive socially and in other facets too. But just because it's happening intuitively, there's still you can take things so much further, again, when you give it language and framework. And I I love I love the example. I'll try to keep it brief, but I love the story of the color blue. Okay. And blue in many languages is the last color to be named, which is just a fun thought to begin with. That at some point we named colors. And obviously, color is a spectrum. Uh, but we did. We picked certain points on that spectrum as the delineation points. And dark and light get named pretty quickly. Red is usually named quite quickly because blood, danger, all kinds of things. Uh, green, usually named very quickly because we need to grow things. Uh, but blue usually is the last color named. And in ancient Greek, ancient Hebrew, ancient Chinese, uh ancient Mandarin, all in all those languages, blue is named last. And they think that the reason is blue is often a background color. Blue is often it's the sky, uh, it's it's water. Uh in fact, I think in in the Iliad and Odyssey, the word blue is not they talk about the sea, they're seafaring voyages. Blue is never mentioned. I think the sea is described as a deep wine color. So what's interesting about that is there was work done. Um, they they found a tribe in Namibia who their language does not yet contain a word for blue. They have 27 words for shades of green, because that's very important to their survival. Yeah. So they can show them uh a poster board with uh 30 green squares and one blue square. And they can identify, they'll say, you know, tell me which one's different. And they can do it, but it takes them much longer than you would think. You know, some of them it takes them up to five seconds, which if if you or I were to look at it, assuming we don't have some sort of colorblindness, uh, we'd point out pretty quick, like, well, that one, obviously. So for them, it shows this connection that until we have a word for something, we we don't perceive it, we don't we don't interact with it. Um, ironically, they also could show them a poster board with 26 green squares and one slightly different shade of green, and they can find that immediately. I can't. I I I don't have that many words for green, and so I don't notice it as much. So our language uh helps it basically adds colors to the palette that we use in life. And so even though a lot of these skills may be picked up intuitively, there's still huge, huge benefit to adding to the color palette. You know, it's yeah, it may be splashing around, but until you have a word for it, until you can name it, until you can throw it in a framework, we're less likely to perceive it and then be able to use it. So there's still huge benefit.

SPEAKER_04: 23:31

I think the benefit is not just for me, for my own understanding and awareness, but also as we start talking about our situation, to actually have words to talk about it, uh, not in a contentious way or an accusative way, or oh, you know, my South African colleague did this again. Uh, but have a more neutral language to discuss it, which we find that if you have that language, you can actually take the conversation further. The emotional sting stays out of it much longer, typically, and and it's much easier to actually find a way forward. So language is is not just helping me answer the why, but it helps us to move forward together. Yeah. Yeah. So today we want to talk about creating culture. You already said, you know, with the hallway example, TCKs just naturally either shift or code switch between cultural rooms or they create culture. Um when you when we use this term culture creation, we also talk about the third cultural space, which is very close to how you explained third cultural kids. Um so what comes to mind for you? What what's beautiful about creating a third cultural space and why is that relevant for TCKs?

SPEAKER_01: 24:52

Well, I think it's it's important because it's uh you said it pretty well. It's there's some neutrality to it. It's the idea that things are done differently, seen differently. You know, that's that's the whole idea of 12 dimensions of culture. It's it's it's three color worldview. It's each room uh is going to have a different combination of those characteristics. So the idea of a third culture is the ability to sort of step back and then observe it in more of a detached sounds negative, but in in more of an objective way. You know, it's um I like uh I like narrative therapy techniques, and in some ways, you could almost apply that to it. It's the idea of being able to separate yourself from your stories so that you can look at them from different perspectives because we're all we're all telling ourselves and everyone around us a ton of stories. That's how our brains organize information.

SPEAKER_02: 25:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:52

And as humans, our brain prefers a complete story to an accurate story. Our brain will always go for whatever closes the loop, finishes it up, and it'll prefer that to accuracy. And so being able to being able to step back, um, that's what narrative therapy techniques are all about. And in many ways, you know, the tools that you gain by creating that third culture space align really well. It's the ability to step back and almost observe from different perspectives, the ability to say, there's more than my way of viewing this. What would it look like from another view? And that that gives you more insight, it gives you uh more maneuverability. There's there's a ton of benefits to being able to stand back a little bit uh and see things from the hallway.

SPEAKER_04: 26:39

The ability to step back on the sometimes I almost feel in today's world that stepping back is not encouraged, being reflective. I wonder why he said that or why why she did that. Um how can I still build a relational bridge? What would that take in that situation? It's almost like um on social media you're either for or against. You have this opinion or you have that opinion. Saying it depends makes you look weak. Um so that ability to slow down a little bit, be reflective, stepping back, it's almost like the world is not encouraging it at the moment, but you're saying it's super important.

SPEAKER_01: 27:21

Yeah, I do think it's important. And to be fair, and it's something I've thought about quite a bit, to be honest, but I think I think in some ways the ability to step back also gives us compassion if we think about it for people who are unwilling to. Because I think the the unwillingness to, um, in my opinion, is is a little bit of an indicator of uh of a little bit of of pain, of a little bit of identity pain. And I think there's good reason for it. We again it's something we've seen in third culture kids. So third culture kids uh identity is hard because their identity kind of exceeds normal language. You know, for most people in the world, uh an easy get-to-know-you question is, oh, where are you from? For third culture kids, that is complicated because where are you from could mean where were you born? Where do you live now? Where have you lived the longest? Where do you feel at home? Where are your parents from? And for some third culture kids, it is a different answer to each five interpretations of that question. Uh so what seems like a simple question actually is quite convoluted. So extra language for third culture kids, it's why the imagery of a hallway is actually really important. And I would argue for just about everyone in the world, we have more strain on things like identity. And we have uh, for instance, you know, in in modern times, it's it's easy, it's easy to espouse ideals. We could all, we could all probably get on board if someone said, Look, we need to put aside our differences so that we can come together and tackle global level problems. And most of us would go, yes, yes, yes, it's very good. And simultaneously, a lot of people would also say, and we need to celebrate unique and diverse cultural, you know, cultural ways of life. And we go, yes, yes, yes, it's very good. Those are linguistically mutually exclusive. You by putting something aside, you by definition can't be celebrating it. And by celebrating uniqueness, you're by definition not putting it aside. And yet, we want both. And I'm not saying we can't do both, I'm saying that that's going to require, just like for third culture kids, some more language, some more framework, it's it's going to require a little bit more. I would argue the benefits are worth it. But with those sort of, with the linguistic um capacity limits that that we've put in place, I think a lot of people in the world struggle with these very seemingly opposing ideals that we're we're still somehow supposed to do at all. So without the language and framework, I think when our identity feels threatened, from a defensive stance, it is one of the easiest things to do is create an us and them. Yeah. And so if you if you feel like identity has gotten confusing, it is. It's an easy go-to to create a us and them.

SPEAKER_02: 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:15

And in an us and them quick stance, it's that's antithetical to stepping back and and reflecting.

SPEAKER_04: 30:22

Culture doesn't just happen, it's created, one interaction at a time. The ICI certification empowers you to build safe, resonant spaces where trust grows and people thrive. Become a culture shaper and join the ICI certification at intercultural agility.com. From a 12 dimensions of culture point of view, I think there's a huge dilemma between community accountability as in let's solve the world's problems together, and individual accountability. I want to be me 100%, and I want to be recognized as me 100%. And that idea of individual first versus community accountability seems to be at play. And I see it even our own family. We're a family with four TCKs, uh, intercultural marriage. Uh, that idea of creating a third cultural space at home, both the parents and the kids, when they get a little bit older, the kids want to be involved in that. I've seen that in our family. Um how how do you what's important when you think about culture creation at home in a transient family like that? Uh, what are some of the key things that they that maybe TCKs bring into the home? I've often heard, oh, my kids speak the local language already much faster than I ever would, or they bring friends home that in the parents' home country, those friends would never enter into their home, etc. etc. So there's a there's a an interplay, but there is also friction. Yeah, there's parents who are pulling the culture of the family to where they are from and where the other parent is from. Uh what have you seen? What's important as this family tries to create culture together?

SPEAKER_01: 32:45

Well, I think again, I feel like I'm harping on it a lot, but language, uh language, I think is one of the first steps. So, you know, even in even in some of the contentious, and I've spoken with, you know, quite a quite a few parents and students uh about it, but the the idea that um the idea that sometimes we get confused by by language. So for example, you know, parents, uh nationality is a great example for for, and this is one of the differences between third culture kids and third culture adults, is for a lot of third culture adults, their formative years had some consistency. And so their sort of their foundation has been has been set and is a bit more rigid. Um, and they moved into you know cross-cultural or intercultural uh experiences. Uh, and there is a difference moving into that from stability versus growing up where that is your foundational system. So some differences there. But things like nationality, we often use nationality uh as a shorthand, basically. That really, really functionally, when we say a nationality, and and I see this with parents, you know, parents worry and say, we're supposed to be raising our kids German. They are German, but they've lived in Singapore so long they think they're Singaporean. And but but they're German too, right? Like they're German. Um that in all honesty, it's a linguistic barrier because really we say German, um, what we actually mean is a collection of beliefs and values and traditions and customs. And so with third culture kids, and I would argue probably with everybody now, it's worth being explicit. So for for the family situations, being able to say, you know, we're raising you to value this. And traditionally, we do this, and um uh just to put those in there, because you could shorthand it with the nationality, and that'll work for other people who understand that shorthand. But for a lot of third culture kids experientially, that word might mean something different. You know, a nationality might, for them, they might think of that as very first culture. They're like, Yeah, I have a German passport, you know, that's that's a piece of paper. Um, but I've grown up here, so second culture functionally, I feel this. So being able to be more explicit, being able to say, well, what we actually mean, or again, these values, beliefs, customs, traditions, um, being able to name those sorts of things, I think helps clear misunderstanding that can occur uh because of interpreting terms differently.

SPEAKER_04: 35:17

Well, it's I find even it's it's not just interpreting the terms differently, but it's how much of your lived experience as a parent, like in my case, I grew up in the Netherlands, my lived experience as a Dutch boy, how much of that do my kids actually already know? So if I were to say, and we don't do that in our household, I want you to be as Dutch as possible, or as Dutch as me, right? Even the lived experience, they don't have that in their heads. They don't have that whole rich, you know, 23 years worth of living in the Netherlands before I moved outside. So it's not just a linguistic problem, it's also what is in that box is radically different between our kids and and our us as parents. So you already mentioned, you know, values with beliefs, rituals, etc. So, so how does it work? What what would a uh a wise family do to create that third cultural space? What are the ingredients?

SPEAKER_01: 36:21

Well, I think the again to uh language, I think language and naming is a good first start. We've talked about that quite a bit. So I but I do think, again, processing intellectually, what we do intuitively is a good start because you want to name things because then you're increasing your palette, you're adding colors that you can then use. Um, name the color blue, and you'll start to notice it everywhere. You know, name a certain behavior, value, trait, what have you, uh, name an experience, and suddenly you have. You've expanded what you can see, what you notice, what you can use. But moving on from that, I think modeling is is quite important to be very intentional with what we model. Uh so whether, and it could be done good or bad, um, but we are incredibly uh humans, again, we have mirror neurons. We're pretty well in tune to the people around us. And in family units, we're heavily influenced by each other. Yeah. Um, loads of lovely studies by clever people about how easy it is for us to uh if we're around our close circle of friends, we end up taking on mannerisms, characteristics, voice affectations, uh, even accents um can switch just by what we're what we're around. So we're we are very easily influenced. So taking a hold of that, I think it's it's incredibly powerful to harness that and say very intentionally, all right, I've named a behavior, a belief, or system, now I'm gonna model it. Now I'm going to make sure very intentionally that my actions line up with this belief, value, tradition, what have you. Um, and then I think the third step to sort of to help it sink in is to create rituals, is to create opportunities where you either highlight or celebrate or get to practice whatever it is you're modeling. And we think about rituals as being, you know, big large ceremonies or something, but they can be very, very small. Just uh small rituals basically is just it's just something that you can do repeatedly to make a habit uh where you get to act out or um or demonstrate or take part in whatever it is that you're trying to model.

SPEAKER_04: 38:32

So uh it maybe I'm I'm just thinking of a silly one from our household. So uh in the UAE it doesn't rain very often in Dubai, so we have a tri uh a ritual that when it rains we we make pancakes. Um so it's really simple, but it's something the kids remember, and uh yeah, it's a little bit of pancakes are a big thing in the Netherlands, in South Africa, they have different versions, but it's it's a fun way to to say, oh, that's what we do in our family. Yeah, it's a bit silly, but it people remember kids remember it.

SPEAKER_01: 39:05

But that's just it. It's you know, it creates it creates an anchor. And and you can, you can there are smart ways to do it, you know. I I think if you can make a ritual, the more the more resilient and the more adaptable the ritual, the better. Um, so I mean that that's a pretty good example, just because the ingredients for pancakes, you're probably gonna be able to find those just about everywhere. So that's that's a good flexible ritual. Uh rituals can backfire if they're too specific, you know, saying, well, um, I mean I lived in Turkey for a while, and uh uh ironically, there's not a lot of it's hard to get a hold of turkey in Turkey. Um yeah, which I looked up the history of the connection. It's fascinating. No time for it now, but uh look it up. It's fascinating. Um, but yeah, no turkey and turkeys. And I uh when I was there, you know, American families would would struggle. I was I was on a military base, so they could get access to turkey. Yep, you could get turkeys. But things like that, that you know, a flexible, a flexible uh tradition or ritual might be, well, we we we have a big dinner. Um that's pretty flexible, but getting too specific and saying we have a big dinner and it has you know cranberry sauce and turkey, and you might not be able to get those everywhere. So being able to keep the ritual uh flexible enough that it can that it can sort of withstand portability, I think is pretty important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 41:07

So those are practical examples of creating culture at home. What what are things that you've seen parents do where you say that's unhelpful?

SPEAKER_01: 41:19

Ooh, I think well, unhelpful uh again, I think some unhelpful things arise from misunderstanding. So like I said, I've seen I've seen nationality be used in an unhelpful way. I I was a fan of the.

SPEAKER_04: 41:36

Is it true that uh b nationality because it's such an easy one, um Do parents just have to recognize the idea that my kids will never be as dot dot dot as I am? Is is that it?

SPEAKER_01: 41:52

Or I mean I think maybe. And I probably I don't think I'd put it quite as harshly. Okay. Um well, only because you know, I do I do absolutely understand that for many people, for people who grow up monoculturally, for people who are third culture adults, nationality is an anchor. Of course you want to transmit that. Um, so I don't think I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do think um it it's sort of accepting the reality of circumstance that if you have chosen to raise your children in a cross-cultural environment with a high degree of transience, it's just not going to look the same. You you the ingredients that give you that nationality as an anchor come from a specific set of circumstances. Uh growing growing up interculturally with transience, it's going to be different.

SPEAKER_04: 42:54

The ingredients won't be there.

SPEAKER_01: 42:55

The ingredients won't be there. So, in some ways, it's that idea of keep your keep your expectations flexible. So that's why I say being able to pull apart what we actually mean by nationality is important. Because I think, you know, whereas that word may not translate right. Again, what for you as a parent might be an anchor and a sense of comfort, the word you use to represent that to a third culture kid child might actually just be a paperwork term. They might they might hear the word British and just say, Yeah, I mean I have a document that says that. Um so being able to instead pull it apart, because you can, I think it's perfectly fine and very healthy to try to transmit a sense of anchor and comfort. And so if I'm pulling it apart a bit.

SPEAKER_04: 43:37

Uh-huh. Yeah. So if I think of an example uh in our household, so the word generosity for where I was raised, that was very important. Um, even sometimes sacrificial generosity. Um, if I think of uh my grandfather's generation, but in my wife's background in South Africa, it was also important. So we discovered that we both brought that as commonality, yeah. And as a result, one of our values is to be generous, and uh and that included hospitality. Yeah, so we found something that was in common, it was maybe lived out different in in where uh we as parents came from, but we made it part of the culture in our household.

SPEAKER_02: 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 44:23

Um so what else can you see that that as parents choose to raise their kids in that context? Uh what else can you see that is important for them to recognize and to maybe uh find practices and rituals around?

SPEAKER_01: 44:42

I think um along with uh things like confusing terminology, like nationality and things, um, as humans we we tend to project. That's just a human trait. Um we project in that we assume our experience is universal, and we assume whatever comforts us comforts everyone, and whatever stresses us, stresses everyone. And that's just it's human. That's we we tend to do that until we until we are confronted with something that shows us otherwise. Uh-huh. And the older we get, the more of those confrontations we find. So we do. As we get older, we universalize less and less. Um, but there's still a degree, there's still a gap between what you probably universalized as a parent and what third culture kids universalize. So being able to bear that in mind uh and sort of take an intentional step to try not to project. So even in stressful situations, for example, uh, like a move. Um, during a move, parents tend to be very forward-facing. They're looking at the future because they're the ones responsible for it. So parents have to focus on all right, we're moving. So where are we gonna live? Where are you guys gonna go to school? Where's the nearest grocery store? Do we drive? Is the public transport? What's the tax situation? The list goes stressfully on and on. The kids. For kids, they're very backward-facing. They're not responsible for that. So they're looking backward. They know that they're leaving behind. Yeah, they're gonna have to end relationships and traditions and comfort and security and familiarity. So they're they're savoring their facing backward. And that can cause a lot of miscommunication because if you're facing forward and you project and assume everyone is, you know, you might think saying something like, Well, kids, where we're moving, there's gonna be a pool nearby. And to you, who cares? Who wouldn't be thrilled? But yeah, kids are like, I don't care about a pool, I'm never gonna see my best friend again because of you, and you think a pool will make it better, and so it causes tension. So I think the the idea of being able to sort of to reflect, to sort of capture your own stance, and that's an important first step, is to realize I am very forward-facing because I have to be, and there's nothing wrong with it, but to understand your other people around you, uh, your kids, uh, even other people in your social circle, maybe facing in different directions.

SPEAKER_04: 47:06

And so I I'm also thinking of you know, cultural preferences, for instance, that parents would say it is universally the best way to communicate, is a direct form of communication. And then kids growing up in a very culturally diverse environment, they discover how to flex between direct and indirect and they bring bring that into the home. And then, you know, if parents don't realize that both of them are uh valid, helpful uh ways of communicating, depending on the situation you're in, that creates a clash in the home. Yeah, yeah. Why didn't you tell me in the first place? But I did tell you, yeah, but I told you in an indirect way, yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. Now I I'm fascinated by you know working with young people, preparing them for the future, and in a way that that's what you're doing as well. Um, off-camera and mic, we were talking about, you know, what what do I do? Well, I I want to make them healthier relationally from an identity point of view, from a future proofing point of view. Yeah, um, so how can we going back to that beautiful quote that you used at the beginning, how can we equip TCKs so that they don't just intuitively do those the culture creation part better, but they actually intentionally start to do it better? What do what would you advise them? What would you advise educators or other people working with young people?

SPEAKER_01: 48:46

Everybody. Um, I mean, in a in a very uh intellectual sense, again, the the importance of language and framework. People do once you give people some extra colors, they can paint far more vividly. Uh so for third culture kids, being able to understand there's a term for them, that they're third culture kids, that um the way they move in and out of culture is is not just them, that there's there's uh mechanisms that are employed by 250 million other people. Um so I do. Language and framework, we've talked about quite a bit. That's uh that's a big first step. In a very practical sense, I think um for third culture kids, two things I often talk about very specifically, and it is quite detailed and specific. Um, but one would be conflict resolution. Third culture kids tend to be bad at it because of that element, that defining characteristic of a higher than normal degree of transience basically means that they're flexing all the time. They're flexing all the time, and uh most people learn conflict resolution skills as an organic part of their environment. They're basically you're stuck around a group of people that you can't escape. So you figure out how to make it work. When you introduce transience, that is not their organic situation. Third culture kids realize every hello is really just a goodbye waiting to happen. So I don't know how to fix anything. If I just wait a little while, they'll move or I'll move. So intentionally we have to add back in something that's missing from their organic environment. And I think that one, that's a pretty that's a pretty important one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 50:25

Um in our work with the three colors of worldview, we we we say, you know, some people are more driven by doing the right thing, others are more focused on doing the honorable thing. And the third one is focused on on being empowering or reserving or or protecting your position, the respect others have for you. Um I I find that language very helpful and learning to recognize that not everybody in the world is focused on doing the right thing. Yeah, not everybody in the world is is zealously uh pursuing protecting honor or or positional power, that there are actually different drivers, um and using that to to give k adults and children a language, yeah. And we even see it in our own household that there is different people in the household who are either more focused on doing it right, doing the honorable thing, or don't step on my toes. This is my responsibility, right? Um, so yeah, uh you've used the tools. Um, how would you advise third culture kids to tool up, basically?

SPEAKER_01: 51:39

Yeah, I think uh again, language helps a ton. So the beauty of those tools is being able to pull apart why there's disagreement in the first place. Uh, if your go-to reaction is just avoidance, which again, in transience, it can be. In transience, it is far too easy to just decide, I'll wait, they'll leave or I'll leave. Um so I think, first of all, understanding the need for uh the need for the ability to process conflict that you can't just avoid. And yeah, being able to understand people's motivations, understanding their value system, incredibly helpful in that. And even sometimes as simple as uh just providing language for the tools, being able to say, you know, one one model that I I use a lot because it's lovely and simple is you know, you can solve conflict through avoidance, through competition, through conceding, through compromise, and through collaboration. And that's one model, there's loads of different ones, but even something I like that one because it's simple. So when I feel, you know, that I'm in in conflict, I can that's easy enough that I can look at my fingers and go, okay, is this one I should avoid? Should I stand up? Do I need to compete and fight for this? Uh, should I concede? Is it not worth it? Can I come up with a compromise? Can I come up? Can we collaborate? Can we work together on this? So even something as simple as that. And that's the beauty of a load of the tools in ICI, is they are they're they're language and framework that can be recalled quickly to help you analyze in a in a much faster sense that when you become familiar with those, with those tools, with that language, with that framework, you know, you can you can pull them out uh and sort of having the awareness to go, oh, this would be the time to think about and reflect on why do we have an argument? What's at the base of it? Where are they coming from? What's their perspective versus my perspective? And then which which of these five approaches is actually going to be beneficial?

SPEAKER_04: 53:36

Yeah. Wow. Uh we've always had the privilege of uh opening up one seat on every certification cohort for um somebody who's probably a TCK, most of them, but uh they they apply and they say, This is why I want to be part of this program. And uh it's been amazing. It's been it's always been refreshing. On behalf of my people, thank you. It's been uh it's always refreshing to have somebody like that join a group, may they be professionals, NGO, uh workers, academics, but just getting that perspective in, it's always been fantastic. Um well uh we could uh talk a lot longer about this subject. Um but where where can people find you? Where can they if they say I want to dive deeper into this conversation, or I want to take this to a place where where I can find a real way forward. Um where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01: 54:35

Yeah, oh please do get in touch. Um you the easiest way is just to uh find me on my website, which is www.chris-o.com. Chris. Nobody's gonna spell O'Shaughnessy out. It's too much. It's just too much. So just Chris-O.com. It is it's great. Loads of G's and H's for decorative purposes, uh, but too much for a website. So yeah, ChrisHypheno.com, and that has uh links to uh my schedule, so where I'll be speaking. Uh also links to my book, uh links to an email so you can see. Remind me again of the title. Uh Arrivals, Departures, and the Adventures in Between. It's a great book. Uh I mean I think so.

SPEAKER_04: 55:15

I I listened to it on audio and I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01: 55:18

Which was your own voice, right? Which was my own voice. I know. We were talking earlier about the fact that it is way harder than you think to record an audiobook. There was a good listen for it. For sound engineers, thank goodness sound engineers are there. They they do marvelous work.

SPEAKER_04: 55:32

Thank you, Chris, for being here again. My pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Uh thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel, or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. If any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you, you'll find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about getting certified in intercultural intelligence and how you can become more interculturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at KnowledgeWorks.com. Special thanks to Jason Commodore for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you to Shelly Reinhardt, Jeton Romage, Nathan Rodriguez, Karen Condoland, and special thanks to Matthew Lankenberg for audio production, Rosen Romage for scheduling, and Caleb Strike for helping produce this podcast.