Speaker 1: 0:07

Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility podcast, where we bring you insights and stories from some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners working around the world to help you become interculturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, marco Blankenberg, international Director of KnowledgeWigs, where every day, we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. Thank you everyone for joining for another episode of Unlocking Cultural Agility, and today I have a very special guest with me, roberta Saffols, who is currently living in Qatar, doha, and we got connected a few years ago and Roberta has been focusing on leadership development with a very special emphasis, and the more I listened to her, the more I had the chance to work with her, the more excited I got about having her tell her story on this podcast. So welcome, roberta. I really appreciate you making the time and I'm very much looking forward to this conversation because I think there's a lot that you contribute with your expertise into the world of intercultural agility. So welcome to this podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:41

Thank you. Thank you, marco. It's been a pleasure to collaborate and to work together, and also for me to learn so much from you when it comes to intercultural agility. So I'm very excited that we get to have this conversation, and just for the content of the conversation itself, but then we get to record it and share with others. It's even more fun.

Speaker 1: 2:01

So I'm looking forward to it so more fun, so I'm looking forward to it. So, instead of me, introducing you.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Who is Roberta and what are you involved with?

Speaker 2: 2:14

Ah, so I'm Roberta Saffos.

Speaker 2: 2:16

I am Brazilian, american, based in Doha, qatar, but I've been an expat for more than 20 years now almost 25 years and so I've lived in Europe, I've lived in the US, I've been an expat for more than 20 years now almost 25 years and so I've lived in Europe, I've lived in the US, I've lived in Lebanon and now in the GCC, and I absolutely love and I'm fascinated with the whole world of mixing of cultures.

Speaker 2: 2:41

My background is in psychology and positive psychology. I have a master's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and had the honor and the privilege of learning under the father of positive psychology, dr Martin Seligman, and it was an incredible experience and it gave me a lot more tools and vocabulary to talk about the things that I'm already passionate about, which is human flourishing. And then here in Qatar, I have my own business with leadership development and corporate trainings and doing some consulting around thriving company cultures, thriving company cultures, and so that's a little bit of what I do, on top of being a mom of two girls that are lovely and keep me busy and then also having family all over the world. My husband is American, so we actually are a multicultural family, so we get to practice some of this in our own household, which is fun that last part seems to be a reoccurring theme in our network.

Speaker 2: 3:49

I'm sure.

Speaker 1: 3:50

Practice at home what you do professionally as well. Yeah, so you mentioned positive psychology. You focus on leadership development, so tell us a little bit more about that. What is positive psychology and what is it not? Maybe that might also be helpful.

Speaker 2: 4:10

Yeah, tell us a bit more so, excuse me, um, positive psychology is the what we call the study of the scientific study of what makes life worth living. So we're looking at the positive side of life in terms of, if you think about psychology and the human psychological experience on a continuum and I don't love the continuum too much, but I'll explain to you why. So traditional psychology tends to look at the human experience from the point of a zero as they they are not experiencing any psychological issues to minus 10. So if I have a psychological issue, I'm experiencing anxiety, depression, you name it. That's where most throughout the last few decades, where traditional psychology has really in and looked in and really researched and tried to understand and then come to remediate those symptoms. Right, but what?

Speaker 2: 5:14

There's a movement that started with. Well, if you back it up, it's back to Maslow's and humanistic psychology. But Dr Seligman has we call him marty, by the way, so marty um has when he took on the role of the president of the american psychological association. That's when that shift started happening. Looking at the human experience from the zero to the plus 10. So looking at where you know a regular person, how do, what do they need to be doing to really experience thriving and to really experience well-being, because they might not be depressed, they might not be anxious, but they might not be experiencing the fullness of life. So, which we call that, the languishing right, that that state of like you're not really having issues, but you're also not living out to the potential of the life that you could have. And as the studies progressed, as the science became more robust, it is clear that what gets you to zero is not what is going to get you to plus 10.

Speaker 2: 6:22

The skills are very different, the tools are very different. The tools are very different, the strategies are very different. I mean there's some that overlap, but most of them are going to be very different. And sometimes you can for me I can work with somebody that is experiencing anxiety and still help them flourish, but I'm not treating the anxiety, I'm helping build some of those other tools that are going to help them thrive while they manage the anxiety with other professionals.

Speaker 2: 6:51

So that is a little bit of what positive psychology is, and I love to bring that into the leadership sphere. One of the reasons I mean I'm already passionate about leadership was before I did my master's. But the research is very clear that one of the most impactful relationships that affect our well is not taken care of, is not cultivating, you know, it's not creating these conditions for thriving and there is friction and that is actually correlates to really low levels of well-being and thriving. So I look at it from the impact. So if I help a leader understand and give them the tools, then there is a ripple effect of well-being and thriving. That can be done because that person is able to then carry that into their work environment.

Speaker 1: 7:59

Fantastic. Now, at face value, it makes a lot of sense. At the same time, an outsider who doesn't know the world of psychology might say well, positive psychology is that. Then you know sweeping all the challenges under the rug and you know whatever needs to be fixed. We won't talk about that. The pendulum could swim to the other side you mentioned, is it? You know, minus 10 to 0, 0 to 10. Explain to us you know what is the the word positive? What is that in practice? What does that really mean? Do you? Do you forget about the negatives or the things that are not working?

Speaker 2: 8:40

no, no, absolutely not we. So a lot of people. Some of the critique of positive psychology is that it's too Pollyanna, you're too naive, and the reality is not that. So when we think about it, I like to talk about it from the perspective of optimism. But optimism is actually looking at a situation as is, not pretending it's not and believing that things are going to get better. Yeah, and then you can bring in hope theory, which is not only the belief that things can get better, but looking at what can I do to influence the situation to make it better and finding diverse pathways to get there.

Speaker 2: 9:28

So, in to some degree, it's actually quite the opposite. It's because, when we make the distinction between optimism and pessimism, optimism is an approach mechanism I go towards the problem because I believe the problem can be dealt with and we are going to deal with it, whereas pessimism thinks that the world is going to collapse and there is no hope. So it tends to have an avoidance mechanism where, then, I'm not going to even go there, and that's why like very conservative in terms of like not wanting to take any risks because the there is no resources to overcome the, the problems and the difficulties. So it's actually quite the opposite, but most people seem to assume that, oh, if you're talking about positive, then only positive vibes, and it's like it's not about positive vibes. It's an actual, robust science, quite scrutinized, and it's really that idea of I'm gonna face the world with a positive outlook in terms of hopefulness. So I see the problem, I see the issues and I'm gonna go forward towards solving it rather than just feeling powerless and hopeless.

Speaker 1: 10:48

Yeah, yeah. I like that picture of avoidance versus embracing all that's in front of me and moving forward with it. So how do you then take that into positive leadership? How does that work compared to, let's say, more traditional ways of leadership development?

Speaker 2: 11:07

So just to kind of backtrack just a little bit in terms of like. So positive psychology has studied the human experience and then naturally, a branch of positive, you know, came off from positive psychology going into how do we study those phenomenons within organizations, which is what is called has a terrible name, by the way it's just positive organizational scholarship is the name of the field and within POS we have positive leadership. And so in positive leadership we look at organizations that are doing exceptionally well. So not only in the typical measures, the typical outcomes that organizations focus on profit and, you know, growth and all of that yes, that we're looking at exceptional results in those areas but also in terms of retention, engagement, so the full picture.

Speaker 2: 12:06

So when an organization is doing super well in all of those spheres, what positive leadership researchers did was to really go in and hone in on those outliers on the positive side, to try to understand what are the practices that are creating those types of results and impact. How do we then study it, amplify it and then multiply it? So how do we learn from those practices? And, rather than focusing on trying to get the people that are underperforming to perform it within the average, we're looking at the people that are exceptionally, the performing exceptionally well within the same context and environment, learning their strategies and then teaching to everybody. And I like to think about it as a bell curve. Right, if I teach the people on the left side of the bell curve how to get to the middle, the bell curve doesn't really change much. But if I t, if I take what I learned from the people on the right side of the bell curve to the hall of the bell curve, then the hull bell curve moves forward, and that, I think, is a powerful strategy that positive leadership brings to the workplace.

Speaker 2: 13:21

As to, yes, we have interventions, yes, we have tools that we can use, but I honestly start by trying to understand the context what is already working here and what are the resources that we already have and leverage those resources to then try to move that curve to where's the right side and and so that it becomes very unique to every group, to every organization, to every team, because it's gonna be what they bring to the table. And how do we leverage that to then work on some of the things that are not working? We are not going to pretend that problems don't exist, but how do we leverage the, the tools, the strengths, the strategies that are already in place, rather than trying to? You know, sometimes what I see in organizations is they they almost cancel the stuff that is working to try to sort out what's not working, which is a very, very sad strategy, because you're like you just took all of your resources and you've yeah, it's not strategic at all.

Speaker 1: 14:24

We call that the infinity loop of organizational development.

Speaker 2: 14:29

Yeah, and that I think is where I do a distinctive, because I don't come in trying to find problems or, in some cases, for consultants invent problems. Right, they come up with a problem urgency. I'm not, I'm looking for what is right and how do we amplify that and how do we spread that throughout the organization. So it's a much more positive experience overall much more positive experience overall.

Speaker 1: 14:56

So to me it totally makes sense what you're saying, but it would be helpful, I think, just to get an example either from your coaching or from the way you've engaged with organizations, can you?

Speaker 2: 15:05

think of a recent example. Yeah, let me tell you a story about so. When I was doing my masters, I decided to actually do a research. I didn't have, I decided to actually do a research. I didn't have to, but I wanted to do a research here in Qatar and so I studied Qatari leaders, which traditionally are quite criticized by the expat community because, I think, majorly because there is a cultural misunderstanding.

Speaker 2: 15:30

Personally, but to me, I didn't buy into the whole idea of what I was hearing from people because it was like, if that's all they are, how did they build this country? And I mean, qatar is amazing, extremely developed. I mean I'm a big fan. And so I went in with that appreciative lenses, trying to understand what are the positive traits of Qatari leaders. And it was fascinating because just having those conversations, people were just so much more welcoming and themselves went so much deeper in the conversations. Deeper in the conversations.

Speaker 2: 16:15

So one of the engagements I did with a startup here, um, after the research, I decided to kind of use that same approach and started by I was working with this c level and I wanted to really map out the strengths. So I started with what we called appreciative dialogues in which, uh, we met with each one of the leaders for an hour and a half and all we did was to talk about what was working, what were they proud of, what were the examples of things that were really exceptional. But it still blows me away. It's how how, in an hour and a half, we got to so much depth of the experience and even some personal things that they shared that I was like still. I still, to this day, find it really fascinating that, coming in from that route of appreciating, honoring and really looking at the individual from the perspective of a resourceful being that has already dealt with a lot of things and comes into the environment with a lot to give and to try to bring that out and name it and really Appreciate it, how that has become such a big open door to then the interventions that we bring later, which then are a bit more on the let's adjust some of these things that might not be working, and so we look at the perspective, calibrating some of those strengths that we find.

Speaker 2: 17:49

What I like to tell is like oftentimes and I know you've seen this in your experience too, marco, but you have a leader that is very passionate, for example, and they can come across quite pushy and demanding, and so to ask them to not be more passionate.

Speaker 2: 18:08

They are passionate, that's beautiful, that's part of what they bring to the table, but, like, help them calibrate that passion so that they can then really engage with the people.

Speaker 2: 18:19

So I look at calibrating strengths more than fixing weaknesses, because we actually tend to do a lot more damage with an overuse of a strength than we do with our weakness. So that's a lot of my work to really look at the leaders and say, okay, what is the strength behind this behavior that maybe the team is struggling with, or you know of the differences within the team and looking at the strength behind each of the individuals and what they're bringing, and then help them see that as something that they can build on each other but also keep each other accountable when it comes to overuse of those strengths and how that can kind of get in the way. And to this day, the beautiful thing about this startup that I still work with them on a regular basis is people still remember those conversations and they still feel empowered by those conversations, which is to me, I mean, amazing yeah, we'll come back to it, but you know it, it aligns very much with what we call the three colors of worldview litmus test.

Speaker 1: 19:31

so you're're doing right by people, you're honoring people and you create empowering, life-giving conversations with them. So we got to know each other a few years back now, and then you decided to join the Intercultural Intelligence Certification certification. You already have an impressive academic and professional resume, so what motivated you to join the certification?

Speaker 2: 20:05

I think from having lived overseas for so long and have, you know, worked with this language of multiculturalism and having some understanding of what it is and what the differences that people bring, I realized that I assume everybody was immersed in those languages and in those understandings. And to my surprise, when I started really digging, like in my context, people don't talk about it and even when they talk about it, they talk about it in general terms oh, indians are like this, americans are like this, and it's like that is such a poor expression of the individual experience. Like if you're going to compare me to every Brazilian or the average Brazilian, it's going to be a very big misrepresentation of who I am, because I am Brazilian from my background but I lived 10 years in the US, I lived in the Middle East, I've been all over the place. I'm no longer, if I ever was that average and so realizing that leaders don't have the language to be able to organize in their heads those differences, so then they become quite binary in terms of what's right and what's wrong and they can't really understand nuance of. You know, this is a perspective, that's a perspective, and both perspectives are valid.

Speaker 2: 21:32

And how do we find that place where we both understand each other, or that I can then interpret what's going on accurately, because if I'm only interpreting from my cultural lenses, I am most often misinterpreting what's going on, the miss perceiving the reality. And so, for me, I wanted to be equipped with not just my own knowledge, but to be able to pass this on to other people, because it's like for me, I think, of the cultural agility I've told you several times. It's like, I think it's it needs to be a, like a second language. I think about it in terms of second language. I need to be able to speak that language to be able to then create those environments where everybody can thrive, because if I don't speak the language of my people, the people that I'm leading, then I I'm not going to connect to the core of who they are.

Speaker 2: 22:26

For them to actually be able to bring that in terms of feeling know, a sense of dignity and honor and feeling appreciated and valued.

Speaker 2: 22:35

I need to be able to speak for my own sake, I need to be able to make sense of it, but then, as I'm leading others, I need to be able to then understand where they're coming from and how to create that third culture space where we all can coexist and bring our best to the surface, where we all can coexist and bring our best to the surface. And so for me it was very much like how do I learn to equip others with that and speak that language? And so I've learned a lot myself that I thought I already knew, and then I realized that there's so much there that we can bring to leaders and honestly, not only in multicultural environments per se. I think they're like when I think about my 10 years in America, I think about some of those racial tensions that are there and the minorities, and you know, with the minorities lot, sometimes it's clear there are some cultural differences, but when it comes especially with racial tensions.

Speaker 2: 23:37

I remember telling my friends I'm like I think what you're talking about is a cultural difference right and I think, the language of culture in those spaces, which would be much more helpful and much more productive than if, uh, than trying to mix between, with you know, racial tensions and history. That kind of brings a baggage to the conversation, whereas when we're talking about culture, it's a much. I feel like it doesn't have the same baggage and and like history, the weight, the ability to actually negotiate some of those things, it's yeah, it's there, you're raising.

Speaker 1: 24:22

You're raising some really good points there. Um, that last point you mentioned about you know, sometimes, although we might carry the same passport, what's between us could be a cultural issue. I still remember we're working now for a number of years with an NGO in the US who's focused on youth at risk, typically in bigger cities. There are over 50 locations and I still remember when the leadership team, after a number of sessions, they stopped and they said said we now realize that all these years the work that we do with young people in the, in the cities, is actually intercultural work and that was a huge paradigm shift for them. They fully embraced the ICI approach and it really has helped them to think about how they engage with young people, their families, families, the neighborhoods etc. In a more interculturally agile way.

Speaker 1: 25:18

And the other thing that you mentioned just now is you're an experienced intercultural person. You know so and we've seen that with our ICI certifications. The average amount of experience that people have is over 20 years typically. So it's not about how much experience you have, but one of our practitioners, chris O'Shaughnessy. He always says learning to explain the why and transfer the skill in a systematic way is what ICI brings to what you intuitively already do well. So you know, I always compare it to. You know, I'm not a golf player, but if I barely know what to do on the golf course, but if I meet somebody who's really really good in golf but it doesn't know how to break it down into little steps for me and explain the why, and you know here's how you start and here's how you keep going Then I will never learn how to play.

Speaker 2: 26:25

And and I find the same with with ICI, it's breaking it down, creating a neutral language, and I'm using that then to enhance your own ability and your own experience, but also transfer it, as you said yeah now, and a lot of what we do in coaching is naming the you know the issue, to then have agency over it and I think with the language of intercultural agility, you're able to then, you know, identify what is the dynamic that's happening, what is going on here, and then to have you know that ability to then manage it. If you don't name it, you can't manage it, you can't self-manage if you don't understand what's going on.

Speaker 2: 27:09

And so when you actually and then being able to teach that to others. It's fascinating to me every time I talk about the three colors of worldview, which is, you know, it's an easier thing to explain Everybody's like. It's like a light bulb goes off and they go. I want to know more. Yesterday, last night, I was talking to a friend who is in the big events management so olympics, world cup and all that and she told me like I want to know more about this thing that you keep talking about, this honor shame thing that you keep talking about in this context, because I want to be able to understand the people I'm around. And I was telling her like well, you need to come to one of the trainings so that you understand deeper and we need to do an assessment so that you can understand where you're coming from. But just people are hungry for that understanding and that just gives us a very structured way of teaching them how to look at the world around them, how to look at themselves, and it's powerful.

Speaker 1: 28:12

Now positive leadership, when you bring those two worlds together, the intercultural and positive leadership, positive psychology. Positive psychology and leadership do have their roots more in the West. So on a three colors, you know we use the three colors of worldview language. That's much more of an innocence, guilt, a right, wrong way of thinking. Maybe I, you know, I'm not the expert, you're the expert here, but just thinking about it, is it more individual accountability versus community accountability? It's very much, you know, giving your creating a voice for people. Even just the examples you gave earlier on creating opportunities for people to tell their story. You would use the word agency. That's very much an innocence, guilt-oriented word. The word agency, that's very much an innocence, guilt oriented word. Individual accountability word is it bias as a field? What could you say to that?

Speaker 2: 29:12

I think it's changing. I think there is a bias, because the research is mostly has been done, you know, historically in the west, although there's quite a bit more happening now in asia and in the Middle East, but it's still heavily Western centric and so the research subject are also Western. So that tends to be. But the field is changing, which I find fascinating because the whole concept of individualism is being challenged. So when we think about the model of well-being from the basic motto from Seligman is PERMA, which is positive, emotion, engagement, relationships. And he will tell you, if you have to choose one, choose relationships and that is the one that is the most conducive to well-being, quality of your relationships, most conducive to well-being, quality of your relationships. And so I think the research is actually shifting and realizing that that more communal experience has a lot of wealth in it and it's quite powerful. But I they are learning the language for it. They don't have language for it. So they would actually benefit from, uh, you know, learning about, uh, intercultural agility and and that language, because they are trying to and like right now it's the big thing is like you are not an island. You can't live in isolation. You need to have a community, especially the us, that that strive for individualism and that on, you know, guilt, innocence push has left people neglected and so you have the loneliness epidemic epidemic, and they in the in america where even the, the former um us uh surgeon, did a whole like he pushed for well-being and their well-being agenda. So there is definitely that portion when it comes to agency. That is a lot interpreting to the individual agency.

Speaker 2: 31:20

But I was fascinated. I was with a friend not long ago. I was in Dubai, actually for a refresh for my coaching skills, and we were all people from different cohorts of the same company and I was talking to somebody from Afghanistan that does the work in Afghanistan and leads and coaches some of their leaders there and she was describing this afghani leader coming to her and saying I want to work on becoming a person of integrity, and then they, you know, exploring the different things that this person could do and of course she's very aware of the gender dynamic, the cultural dynamic and you know the whole idea of agency and community as the center of the unit, of the functioning of the society. But then he talked about well, maybe I can sit at the end of the day and reflect on my day and reflect on what how did I act with integrity, where did I act with integrity and where I didn't act with integrity? With integrity, where did I act with integrity and when I didn't act with integrity?

Speaker 2: 32:28

And I thought it was fascinating because this is a person that, in that context, is very much like with an under the, the paternal, you know, guidance, where father's going to tell them what to do and what career to pursue and what is good and what's right. But with a little bit of agency in terms of like, I can do a reflection of how I behaved and how I can behave differently. And so I think that little bit of agency is quite powerful, because then again goes back to the theory, the hope theory, where you, you're looking at the situation. Be it, I want to become more a person of integrity, I want to solve this particular problem. But then what can I do in my sphere of control and influence, and how do I then change what I can do?

Speaker 2: 33:18

Rather, than be expecting the rest of the world to change for me, but not thinking that in isolation, but within my context and you're already alluding to some of the challenges.

Speaker 1: 33:32

when you bring an approach like positive leadership into a variety of cultural contexts and what comes to mind is the idea of you know what does vulnerability look like? What is strength considered, especially as a leader? When are you practicing something new and it's perceived as weakness? Or the way you might use humor or even go further, sarcasm, for instance. There's all these approaches. I still remember introducing co-creating solutions to a leader saying don't come with the solution, just facilitate a conversation with your team to find the solution together. And he said to me I can't do that. They're going to look upon me as incompetent or weak. I have to come with the solution. And it took a while for him to get to the point where he could hold back his ideas and be more coach-like in creating that conversation. So what is your experience as you bring this? How does the ICI framework help you bring it in a more appropriate way or more culturally agile way? Do you have any examples?

Speaker 2: 34:53

So I look at some of the leaders I work with, of course, very Qatari, traditionally Qatari, and usually, rather than being prescriptive, I asked them where have you seen that work best? So to try to tap into their own cultural experience rather than introducing something very foreign. And that's where my ICI perception comes in, because I, you know, I'm looking at resources, but I'm looking at the resources within the context of the culture, not just in the context of the individual, because it is a communal culture, because they're they're looking at um examples and and models from within. And so I ask, like, where have you seen a collaborative, uh decision being made and how did that leader come about and did it threaten their leadership? Because of course, that is often the case. They ask, so I'm, they're expecting me to have an answer, and if I don't have an answer, then they're going to think I'm incompetent or they're not going to respect me. And then helping them think about how can they prime the conversation to then be able to say, hey, I do have an answer, but I want to hear that maybe you have other ideas that I can consider, and so to help them realize it's like you can.

Speaker 2: 36:15

So you asked about vulnerability in in all of that and I think, and this, helping them understand what is it that they're thinking, uh, is often a starting point, because then we can then look into, okay, how do you then show up, share that, what you need to share, without feeling like you've you became weak in front of people, uh, and so really respecting those real threats for them because, like one of the things I understood, so, when I worked at one of the hospital networks here, the fear that people had was that it wasn't safe for them to be vulnerable, to be honest, to show that they didn't know, and that was a genuine fear because it was not a psychologically safe environment.

Speaker 2: 37:07

And so we had to work within that context as to like, how do you create that bubble within your team of the best conditions for thriving, being very aware that this might be threatening to your very existence in this context? That doesn't reward that right. And so, to help them find mechanisms and to write a lot of the leaders you're asking for story, a lot of the leaders was about helping them prime the conversation.

Speaker 2: 37:40

That placed them with credibility, yet trying something, and often they I, when I teach coaching to one of the big companies here, one of the aviation teams and they often say, like my team wants me, they're gonna find it really weird that I'm not giving them answers yes and and I tell them, you know you can tell them that you've learned a tool and that you're trying this tool and if they can entertain you with that tool now, like I'm going to try something new that I want to see if it works, and then at any moment you can go back to your default.

Speaker 2: 38:20

But that gives them the the, it shows, it tells people you're not just messing with them or you're mad at them or you're trying to catch them, because that was the big thing. They're gonna think I'm gonna try to catch them. It's like no, you have to be upfront about your intention so that then they know that they are actually a part of something that is safe. And so helping them acknowledge what is the risk and then finding those and there are real risks within that context. Yeah, but if I think about it in the West.

Speaker 2: 38:54

I'm not incompetent, so therefore I'm not going to worry about it. But the reality in an honor-shame environment is it doesn't matter if you're competent or not. You need to be perceived competent, right. It doesn't matter if you're competent or not, you need to be perceived competent right. So how do you are then bringing in those practices, yet preserving that honor and that credibility that you need to have?

Speaker 1: 39:20

that is built differently here than it is in other parts of the world, and what you're describing really does require that interculturally agile language and framework of thinking, because, as I'm listening to you, I think a copy-paste approach would never work. So, so you have to gently, maybe even slow it down a little bit, even for yourself as a professional, and just find your way into what the reality is for the group or for the client, and then come alongside them in their reality and help them move forward. So in that way, ici can assist you as a positive leadership expert. But what about the other seven, eight hundred ICI practitioners around the world, in 55 countries? How can positive psychology in general, or positive leadership, how can it help ICI practitioners? What would you say to that?

Speaker 2: 40:24

I think the language of culture is a very important language, but it doesn't solve all the other, all the we have right.

Speaker 1: 40:34

Having that language is a starting point.

Speaker 2: 40:36

And so when I think about positive psychology coming into an environment like afghanistan and that tiny little bit of agency that it could give to that one person, but just you know, uh, sitting there and being able to have the hope theory in their mind, you know, as a coach in this case, having theory, hope theory in their mind and say, okay, how do I help this person feel that they have efficacy, that they can intervene in this fear, that they are able to control? How do I help this person identify some pathways, some ways of dealing with this and finding a way forward in this situation? So that concept in itself is quite powerful and it can be adjusted to any culture. So it's a tool and it's a concept and a theory that you bring in and then you use it within the culture. Right, it's the same of optimism that we're gonna.

Speaker 2: 41:37

We're gonna look at what are they hoping for within that culture, what are the problems that they are dealing with, without, without comparing if that would be a problem for me. It doesn't matter if that would be a problem for me or if that would be something I would struggle with in their experience of, of their context and reality. This is it. This is something that it's really a barrier, and so how do I use those interventions in a way that can move them forward? The same with relational intelligence, you know, like looking at how do they understand the power of strength spotting, which is, you know, for many cultures it's a very foreign concept.

Speaker 2: 42:19

You are very much a critic you don't you know, affirm Some cultures you never heard. I love you, right. And then you are with Americans that love you, know their Starbucks, and I do that because I do love my Starbucks, so I can say that, yeah, yeah but I remember when I first moved to the US and everything was I love you, I love this, I love that and I'm like we met two hours ago. I think you're cool. I can't quite say that I love you because you know, to me love was such.

Speaker 2: 42:56

It's such a weighty word, but can I help with whatever language that I learned that I decide to use in that context? Help people find a way to identify what the other brings and the value that they add from honoring their, their background, their story and and their humanness, and seeing that as an asset rather than a difficulty and a barrier we need to put up with right and I think that is probably the most powerful, because that is something that I've seen is like people are hungry for that affirmative and appreciative lenses, and absolutely.

Speaker 1: 43:45

I think that's a universal universal need.

Speaker 2: 43:48

But even even in the I see you sometimes have a lot of flattery, but not deep like I see you Right, I see you, I see what you bring and I highlighted and I talk about it. And that tends to bring forth more. People want to offer that more, and that is one of the tools that I see working really well in environments, and that's where I think positive psychology can help.

Speaker 1: 44:16

And I can say, you know, being part of the conference that you organized in Doha and bringing that positive leadership story, you could see, you could feel the energy in the room how it lifted the both expats as well as the Qataris themselves. It was actually evidence that people are longing for somebody affirming what is done well and what is positive. I really am grateful that I had the chance that you invited me to come and join, and then it's been great, yes. And then you know, after that, actually you joining the KnowledgeWorks network as well, so as a KnowledgeWorks partner. So we're very much looking forward as to how that will unfold the rest of this year and the future, how that will unfold the rest of this year in the future and part of that. You also already then announced that you had a desire to start a leadership academy. So tell us more about that, because I think that's a really exciting project.

Speaker 2: 45:27

Yeah, so we're in the trenches right now putting together all the pieces and hoping to launch in this this fall in September, october. But we're looking at one of the my frustrations and I think we've talked about this a little bit is that I'm called into organizations and I do a one-off sometimes. You know a series of workshops, but I don't have a lot of as an external provider. I don't journey with the people, usually to get them from A to B to C to D, and so, in realizing that the impact of this, of positive psychology and positive leadership, comes in helping people really wrestle with things and then try again and try again. So we're looking at a curriculum that is like a 12 week long curriculum where we're going to meet once a month for a full day and then two weekly encounters where we're going to do a journey in, and actually we are looking at leader formation more than leadership development. We, our leadership, comes out of who we are, and so the leader needs to understand how they function, how their story play a role in their decision making and in how they show up in the world. But then how does that then influence how they relate to others into their teams and how they can come out of that alignment, with understanding who they are and how they want to be perceived to lead the impact that they want to drive, and so it's going to be a three module process. But and then the exciting thing that we are developing to go alongside this is an AI support. It's not quite an AI chat bot. It's more like a priming and nudging coach that is gonna be helping them wrestle through the content and how to apply it within their context, and so that is gonna be there.

Speaker 2: 47:30

We're doing our pilot program now. In the fall, we're gonna have about 25 leaders walking with us through the journey and we're doing our pilot program now. In the fall, we're going to have about 25 leaders walking with us through the journey and we're going to be doing all the metrics to see the real impact. But we're quite hopeful that this not only is going to provide the leaders solid foundation, but also is going to generate quite a bit of results for the organization.

Speaker 2: 47:55

And, more important than ever, in this context of constant change and not knowing what the future holds, and everybody's living in this uncertainty that only becomes more uncertain, having leaders that have strong foundations and operating out of those strong foundations is essential, because an insecure leader causes quite a bit of damage, and so we want to build that security, and so that is a very exciting thing that's happening and that we're building, and then later we will expand into other countries. You're starting starting Qatar and plan to go to saudi next, next year, uh, with this uh program, uh, but there will be lots of other things that are going to come up uh as part of this knowledge hub sounds really exciting and necessary, like you said, a journey approach to working with leaders and and bringing the intercultural agility.

Speaker 2: 48:54

That is a very so the foundational pieces for us in this journey we were just finishing writing the curriculum is the cultural intelligence and the emotional intelligence. For us it goes hand in hand. Without that base of language, um, then it, then you. You can't engage as deeply.

Speaker 2: 49:15

So we wanna make sure the leaders leave not only with an ability to understand their. We want them to understand their cultural being and how that also plays a role, and how the cultural element plays a role in the dynamics that they are leading, and how does that influence the impact they're creating within the organization? Because it goes from the micro to the macro, and so we need to help them understand that and then scale that as well. So I could have talked for hours no, no, it's fantastic.

Speaker 1: 49:53

This is really exciting. And, yeah, if people are in the region, or, specifically, if they live in Qatar or Saudi or any of the other countries in the Gulf, how do they get in contact with you? We will share contact information in the notes, as we always do, but how do they connect with you, roberta?

Speaker 2: 50:13

Yeah, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn, roberta Saffols on on linkedin, or you know, we have a website, robertosafflescom and um, those are probably the easiest channel. I have a youtube channel where, if you are curious about the summit that we did last year where marco was there, all those videos are up. You can watch them and you can see a little bit more about what they where we do and in that context, it's gonna get stronger as we go.

Speaker 1: 50:39

And then, yeah, those are probably the easiest ways to get in touch well, as you said, we could talk if we could talk for hours about this subject, but yeah, thank you so much. I I'm very excited about our partnership and the way what's the fancy word? Convergence starts to happen, you know when, when different disciplines, different perspectives come together, and I can definitely see that as as even as we're having the conversation today. So thank you so much for joining thank you.

Speaker 2: 51:10

Thank you, marco. It was a pleasure, always an honor. It was a pleasure, and we will do the reverse. I want you on our podcast when we launch that in just a couple of months.

Speaker 1: 51:21

Put me on the list, count me in For sure. We've just done some analysis on how the podcast is doing and we're actually doing very well within the business context, but we also need your help. So, whatever channel you might have listened to this podcast, please give us a thumbs up or a like or, if the platform allows, please write a little review. That will really help us to spread the podcast far and wide. And, of course, you know, send a send a share link to people in your network who might benefit from from listening to podcasts like the one roberta and I just recorded.

Speaker 1: 52:07

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the cultural agility podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel, or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. If any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you, you'll find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you'd like to learn more about getting certified in intercultural intelligence and how you can become more interculturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworkscom. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, shelley Reinhardt, rajita Raj, anita Rodriguez, karen Condon, and special thanks to Matthew Blankenberg for audio production, rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for helping produce this podcast.