Marco Blankenburgh: 0:01

or I can fight it. But if a leader is power fear oriented and you start, you fight it. You better make sure that you can win, or you stay quiet and you try to change the system from the inside. So with power fear, you really only have four choices. But the first thing I really need to embrace is powerful people make powerful decisions. I can't change that. It's what I do with it. That's what determines the outcome.

Marco Blankenburgh: 0:37

Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility podcast, where we bring you insights and stories from some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners working around the world to help you become interculturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, marco Blankenberg, international Director of KnowledgeWives, where every day, we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. So well, thank you all for coming. We are very excited about this webinar, this podcast. The opportunity to actually do this, on the one hand, is a little bit scary for us We've never done this before, as Caleb said but at the same time, being able to use the ICI framework and understand what's happening in our world better. We do that in our office all the time.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:38

We talk about the world from an ICI perspective regularly when we're together. So we want to give you an opportunity to also experience that, and it's fantastic that Rana has agreed to say yes. So thank you, rana, for being here, and I was immediately thinking about her because I actually knew Rana already before she knew me. I actually knew Rana already before she knew me because she's involved in broadcasting and journalism Jordan TV, cnn. She worked for the embassy, she had an incredible career behind her, with degrees in communication, and she published a fantastic book, when in the Arab World, and that's a great book if you are planning to do work in the Middle East or if you are planning to move here. So yeah, rana, thank you so much for joining and I look forward to this conversation together.

Rana Nejem: 2:39

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and I'm so glad that you actually asked me to be part of this. I remember when I first met you it was in 2012, when I was first introduced to KnowledgeWorks and to your work, and it's when I did the certification course the one week certification course in Dubai and since that day I have been applying and using all the tools from KnowledgeWorks and I've been growing along with KnowledgeWorks and I really value all of these tools so much. And to say something about Marco, for those of you who are not very familiar with Marco, I realized that you are truly a you live what you preach. You are a completely you know intercultural citizen of the world.

Rana Nejem: 3:29

Born in the Netherlands with the oldest of about four boys. You soon became a global citizen and moved around different parts of the world, and I was happy to find out that you also lived in Jordan for about seven years and that's where I'm from and that's where I am right now and then, in South Africa, you met and married your wife, jolene, who is from South Africa, and then you together moved to the UAE, where four children were born in the Emirates, and so you have a completely intercultural family with four third culture kids. And of course, marco is the co-founder or co-inventor of the ICI framework and a master facilitator and behavioral consultant. And really you are the compass maker, helping people to go places that they might not reach on their own, to experience not just living, not just surviving in this interculturally complicated world, but really thriving in it. So I'm really happy I got to meet you all that all those years ago and I'm so happy to be working alongside you with this and happy to be here with you.

Marco Blankenburgh: 4:55

Thank you, rana. I'm honored by your introduction. It hasn't happened for a while, so I really appreciate it a while, so I really appreciate it, thank you.

Rana Nejem: 5:09

So let's look at this, the topic for today. So when marco actually sent me the topic and the idea of doing this webinar trump trade and tariffs understanding the forces behind the current global shifts my initial reaction was panic why are we talking about politics? I'm not a politician, we're not politicians. I'm sure there are a lot of other people who are far more qualified to talk about the politics of this, but then, after we had a conversation, I understood this was not about politics. This is actually something that I don't believe has been done before. It's looking at what is happening in politics and in current affairs through an intercultural lens, which is going to be very, very interesting, and I think we're playing around with it together here and I'm really excited to see what comes out, what we see through that intercultural lens. So what were your thoughts about it when you came up with this perspective, this new idea?

Marco Blankenburgh: 6:19

Well, it's been in the conversation, like I said, in the office, but also in working with leaders around the world, being able to understand what's happening in the world. Of course, there's multiple lenses that are necessary it's history, it's politics, it's economics, it's psychology, it's sociological at the same time. But very often people don't talk about the cultural element or they make very, very generalized statements. And that's why, using the KnowledgeWorks framework, which Caleb already mentioned, we will be doing focusing on the Three Colors of Worldview, the cultural mapping inventory, because really there's a lot to learn about some of the key players in our world and why they behave the way they do from a cultural perspective. And that's why this is such an exciting subject, because, like you said, I don't know of anybody who is actually taking this perspective.

Marco Blankenburgh: 7:24

And, just a bit of a spoiler alert, we will make available some of the intercultural analysis documents that we've created so you can find the details later on. They will be made available to you and it's just beautiful. And one of the reasons why we're doing it now is because we have, in the last six weeks, we've worked with uh, with a friend of ours at google ai, to create our own ai engine. We've now have over 20 years of research and knowledge works on all things intercultural. We've worked in over 70 countries so we, with help from outside, we were able to create an AI engine that has all our intellectual property in it, nicely locked in a box, and it was just absolutely amazing to start seeing what we can do with that and, uh, one of the things that one of the outputs of that we will make available to you um later on, uh looking at into interculturally analyzing the movers and shakers of our world and it we want to share some of that today. I'm super excited about it because it really has taught me so much.

Rana Nejem: 8:45

Yeah, that sounds so amazing. That sounds really amazing. Can't wait to unpack this together. Before we just move any further, let's just take a few seconds for the benefit of our listeners, who might not be very familiar with the three colors of worldview.

Rana Nejem: 9:02

So this is one of the tools, one of the frameworks that was developed by KnowledgeWorks and it looks at the world in three colors of worldview in terms of the main motivators of behavior. So it says it sees that one worldview is one doing that which brings honor honor versus shame, safeguarding my honor and avoiding shame. The other worldview is about being right, innocent and avoiding being wrong or guilty. And the third one is doing which brings control, power and influence, while avoiding fear. Influence while avoiding fear and just quick pointers about them that you will never find a pure honor. Shame or innocence, guilt or power, fear they're always all present in various degrees together.

Rana Nejem: 9:56

But it's an amazing framework that helps us understand what's happening underneath the surface, the main motivator of behavior that affects the way we interact, the way we make decisions, the way that we communicate. So we'll be using that lens, if you like, to understand some of the things that are happening now in our world and politics, and also just to also keep in mind that there's no nothing that is completely positive or completely negative. Like any value, when you take it to its extreme it kind of flips and becomes negative. So each worldview has kind of within it the silver lining and then the shadow side. So there's no better, worse, best. It's just a different way of looking at the world. If you like so, are you ready, marco? Let's dig right in.

Marco Blankenburgh: 10:57

Let's do this yeah.

Rana Nejem: 10:59

Let's dig right in. So looking at what's happening around us. So looking at what's happening around us. We're now less than four months into Trump's second presidency and, needless to say, there's been a lot of surprises.

Marco Blankenburgh: 11:29

Do you think applying the cultural lens can help us make sense of things and perhaps even help us to navigate them, to adjust to what's going on. Yeah, absolutely. I think there are multiple surprises around the world, and one of them is when I speak to my friends from the United States. We have over 150 ICI practitioners in the US, and I think the biggest shift is best explained, I would say, through the lens of the three colors of worldview. By and large, american presidencies in recent years have mainly been more right and wrong oriented, the rule of law and maybe a secondary power oriented or honor oriented. It depends a little bit on the president.

Marco Blankenburgh: 12:16

But when Trump became president, it's clear from his language and from the way he engages with people that position, power, strength, winning are very, very important ingredients, and if you start looking at his inaugural address, for instance, he said things like America's back in charge. Another thing he said the world will once again respect America's strength when China, when things escalated in March this year, he said in a public address the Chinese will learn not to test us again. We're the ones who decide how the game is played. So then there's many, many more statements like that that actually point to when it comes to the three colors of worldview, a strong power orientation, and we would call that in three colors language. That his, that is his primary driver and that is, I think, the biggest surprise for people, because he by far is probably the strongest power fear oriented president that the US has had, in our recent history at least, and that is a huge shift compared to previous presidents. No matter what you think about it, it's a way of operating that people have to get used to and, of course, that then resonates around the world. So the shift from less innocence, guilt actually, when we did the intercultural analysis with our AI engine, what it came back with it says, actually, his secondary driver is honor, shame.

Marco Blankenburgh: 13:57

And if you just look at a few statements, in February he was at a rally in Florida and he said those who stick with us will share in the victory, those who betray us will will be remembered. And that was you know, you join ranks and you share in the glory, but if you don't, you will actually share in the shame. But if you don't, you will actually share in the shame. And he used language like pride, historical greatness, bringing the greatness back.

Marco Blankenburgh: 14:33

And that is more honor, shame oriented and the difficult thing that most people really struggle with is the fact that right and wrong is actually not as important. It's about winning, it's about getting things done. There was one incident around border control and who is allowed to be taken out of the country and under what conditions. At one point he said we don't need court approval to protect our country, and there's many statements that are there that are either then mirrored by the people around him, where the application of the law is often seen as a roadblock that is used in a negative way as opposed to in a pure legal way, and that is also a hard thing for people to get used to, because it's just a very different way of operating.

Rana Nejem: 15:31

Absolutely, absolutely. That makes so much sense because really we've always been so used to things coming out of the United States is that it has to be legal. The main, the, the, the main thing that we come back to is the courts and what's the, the law, which then determines what is right and what is wrong. What is, you know, innocent versus guilt? And he's completely shifted that and and decided it completely, and it's all about because the you know right is determined by whoever is in power, and he is in power, and that's what makes it right that. That's very helpful to see it, and I never thought there would be an honor shame aspect to it. Actually, I never saw that before, but that makes a lot of sense yeah, and we always.

Marco Blankenburgh: 16:22

We always say when we, when we work with leaders or teams around the world, when you discover that power fear is a strong driver for a leader, one of the things to wrap your head around is that I always say powerful leaders make powerful decisions, and that might sound simplistic, but actually it's not so. A leader will make a decision, no matter if you agree with it or not. Powerful leaders make powerful decisions. And then I have a number of choices I can make. I can either disengage if I have the choice sometimes you don't have the choice, sometimes you don't have the choice.

Marco Blankenburgh: 17:04

I can comply, and compliance is a big factor of staying in favor. If a leader is more power fear oriented, compliance is very important or I can fight it. But if a leader is power fear oriented and you fight it, you better make sure that you can win, or you stay quiet and you try to change the system from the inside. So with power fear, you really only have four choices. But the first thing I really need to embrace is powerful people make powerful decisions. I can't change that. It's what I do with it.

Rana Nejem: 17:42

That's what determines the outcome and in that world view the power, fear world view what good looks like and you said it what good looks like is doing as you're told, and if you do as you're told, then you are good in that world view. So, keeping all of that in mind and saying that you know powerful leaders make powerful decisions, what lessons can we take from that to our own life to make it real for us in the workplace? To a leader who is very right versus wrong, abiding by the rules and regulations and being fair to everyone, and then suddenly we have somebody new who is completely in the power of fear and it's about powerful decisions. What's your advice to deal with that?

Marco Blankenburgh: 18:38

Well, first of all, the biggest problem we sit with is that quite a few people experience this shift as as difficult, stressful, wrong.

Rana Nejem: 18:50

Sorry, that didn't throw me off race, when we just saw cancel, delete and let's go back to where we were so we were talking about how, what the lessons that we can learn from when we're working in an organization and we're used to an innocence guilt or somebody who does the right thing and follows the rules and abides by them, and then the leader changes into someone who is more powerful. So you said some of the things, that options that we have, but how do we deal with that?

Marco Blankenburgh: 19:25

Yeah, yeah, the first thing that comes to mind. We're surrounded, unfortunately, in our world by people in power who use power in the wrong way or in an abusive way we always talk about. You know, power can be used in two ways. You can be sucking the life out of people you become bigger, others become smaller. Or you can be life giving you can be empowering. Or you can be life-giving you can be empowering. So the difficult thing about the world we live in is that power is often seen as a negative word and we don't believe that Power is actually a positive word. We need to recognize that. If we don't reconcile what we do with power and how we use it in our world, we will just become like some of those bad examples that pop up in our head, and this is why we believe that power fear is not the negative one of the three. You know, rana and I are facilitating this webinar. We're in a position of power and we hope that we will use that in such a way that it is actually life-giving for you, that it is empowering to you, and we need to really wrestle with that in our world and create a positive counterforce. So when you are in a position of power, when you have influence, either formally or informally, really think carefully about how you use that.

Marco Blankenburgh: 20:54

The word empowerment is used so frequently in organizations, but very often people don't know how to really activate true empowerment, because it's a cultural thing. It's not just saying from now on managers will be empowered. It doesn't work that way. So that's the first thing I would say. But those four things that I mentioned earlier on I either comply, I disengage, I fight against it or I lay low and work the system from the inside out. Very often that's what you need to do if you're not the most senior person in the room, so accepting that sometimes people make those decisions and then deciding how am I going to engage in this situation If you are in a position of seniority. Culturally, figuring out what empowerment really looks like, what life-giving choices, words, engagements look like, is really important, and it's not always the same when it comes to the type, the cultural mix that you might have on your team, and we talk a lot about that in our coaching and in our team development sessions.

Rana Nejem: 22:13

That makes a lot of sense. That's very helpful, and I like when you said one of the options is you kind of lay low and work within the system, and that's very helpful when you actually shift the meaning of what's going on around you to see it in a different lens and to understand that fear is not necessarily a negative thing. So look at it, how can I be empowered by that? How can fear actually help me do something better rather than disempower me? That's definitely one helpful right. So let's dig a little bit deeper in that and go back to the world stage and so, with what's been happening, one of the things that I've found I struggled with and I'm sure a lot of other people might agree with me is the way that JD Vance showed up in the NATO security summit and as well as his speech while visiting Greenland. Can you help me understand, help us all understand that, what happened there, through looking at it through the intercultural lens?

Marco Blankenburgh: 23:26

So at the securities conference in Munich earlier this year, vance, that was actually his first public appearance, almost a 22 minute speech, and he really surprised everyone and then got everybody upset. And the reason why is because he overused the direct communication style. So we talk about direct versus indirect communication in our 12 dimensions and he just you know in English they say he shot straight from the hip. So he mentioned that the biggest threats Europe was facing were from within, not from the outside. He criticized European immigration policies. He even publicly announced support for the far right party in Germany, the ADF party in Germany, the ADF, and he even questioned the way democracy was practiced in Europe. Now, when you look at European politics, there is of course, many different cultures involved, but there is sort of a common denominator of respect, of careful diplomacy, of not criticizing in public, finding consensus. That's sort of the style in Europe. So with his first public appearance, not only did he did he break that style, he also was in the eyes of the Europeans, no matter what he thought about his own speech. But in the eyes of the Europeans he was actually not respectful of history. He wasn't honoring them in the way they were expecting from a first visit. They said that it was interference oriented, that it was condescending, that it came from a place of not understanding European history. There's quite a lot of European politicians and senior generals who commented on it, on his speech, and we all know that interculturally, that first appearance is pivotal. You know, am I going to build bridges or not? Now, it could well be, and I've not found any reference to that at all. Could well be that he purposely wanted to rock the boat, that he wanted to be disrespectful, et cetera, but I couldn't find any reference to that. So what happened? The Three Colors of Worldview sort of explain it. He took a position of power which nobody was expecting.

Marco Blankenburgh: 26:21

So as a young politician, new to the game and then representing the US government, his first appearance taking a position of power in that manner where you're actually offending, that was where things really started to go wrong and you can see that in the responses. So it marked a significant shift in how the US was going to relate to Europe and the people are still calibrating for that. So the collaborative, consensus, respectful way of dealing with one another in Europe. All of a sudden they said wait a minute, us is not going to play that way anymore. And that was rubbed in even further when he went to Greenland.

Marco Blankenburgh: 27:08

So when he went to Greenland he actually visited the island with his wife and that's where he basically said the Danish government has not done well by Greenland, they've not managed the island well, they've not supported it well, and that that of course. Then of course, all kinds of responses. He literally said you've not done a good job by the people of Greenland, you've under invested, despite the fact that they spent half a billion euros a year in Greenland. So all of that was not taken very well, neither by the Danish government. But the Danes are very harmony oriented, consensus oriented. So, for instance, if you look at what the Danes said in the Danish newspapers, for instance the prime minister or the foreign minister, he said we respect the US for our longstanding relationship, but we did not feel respected in what was said by Vance when he visited Greenland A Greenlandic MP actually, because the government was elected shortly after Vance left the island One of the Greenlandic MPs who is now in power.

Marco Blankenburgh: 28:30

They said well, we should probably close the US consulate on Greenland because this is not how we like to be treated. So yeah, lack of respect, lack of common decency.

Rana Nejem: 28:43

That was another phrase that was used, so yeah, yeah, so it seems that he took the power fear way that he became used to from his boss and applied that in a completely different setting. That wasn't expecting it and was completely shocked.

Marco Blankenburgh: 29:12

So it really backfired, uh, significantly. The other thing that's really important to remember is that, um, one of the dimensions on the 12 dimensions is the status dimension. So it's ascribed status versus achieved status and if you're new you have to assume that you will not be ascribed status just because you are especially not in a more innocence, guilt oriented achieved status environment and NATO is definitely in a chief status environment. So he came in assuming that because of his position, that he could say those things, things, it backfired on him and it created a very rocky road these last few months because, as a result, they actually mentally were taking him from his pedestal, because they were not ascribing him the status that he had, because by his words he wasn't achieving it.

Rana Nejem: 30:08

Right and ascribed is. It's about who I am achieved is about what I do. What's more important?

Marco Blankenburgh: 30:14

or less.

Rana Nejem: 30:15

Yeah, yeah, definitely and so this is really fascinating. Yet when he goes to india, the home country of his wife, we see something completely different. What happened?

Marco Blankenburgh: 30:31

yeah, then you see that he can be culturally sensitive and he can actually uh, adjust. And uh, yeah, when you look up, you see any pictures of the vans family with their children. They have three young children visiting in india, visiting with the president, visiting some of the religious sites, festivals, cultural festivals. It looks beautiful, you know, and I just looking at everything that he said during that trip that was in the public, it was very respectful, it was honoring, it was collaborative language, etc. So it was fascinating to to compare those, you know, uh, also, for instance, uh, the the comment about the chinese. Everybody probably has heard that he called the Chinese peasants in one of the press conferences. But then, stark contrast, when the family visits India you should look it up, you know, even dress, his wife beautifully dressed, the colors were symbolic as they landed in India. Him, you know, by and large still wearing a blazer, but the kids also beautiful local dress. Yeah, it was really nice pictures to watch.

Marco Blankenburgh: 32:01

And then he comes home and then the conflict between Pakistan and India erupts and then he manages to offend India by saying that well, that conflict is none of our business, while when he was visiting India he actually honored the president and said we want to collaborate, we want to continue the long relationship that we have had. And then the first comment back home he says that conflict is none of our business, and culturally, of course, that is not a wise thing to say because, ultimately, on the one hand, you're saying we're with you all the way, we want to continue the relationship. On the other hand, you're saying, you know, sort it out yourself, so to speak. Uh, so, uh, I thought he was on a good path, uh, and just one little comment can easily destroy your, your cultural credibility along the way so what that tells me?

Rana Nejem: 33:05

actually I get kind of two, two points here. One, that we can shift our worldviews. A person can change and the environment that we are in really does have a big impact on which worldview we function from. More so it seems. When he was there in India it made sense for him and he shifted. But then when he came back home the cultural worldview of his boss was far more powerful and that kind of imposed itself on him and so he shifted back into the power fear. We tend to see that happening as well with us in our work environment, because at home I might function from a certain worldview and, depending on the organization I work with, I find myself when I go to work I shift into a completely other worldview can you.

Rana Nejem: 34:03

So, from your perspective, how can we um? How can we manage that? How can we help that?

Marco Blankenburgh: 34:13

Yeah, and you're raising a really good point, because when we look at, for instance, the three colors of worldview or the 12 dimensions, these tools are not pointing to personality, the way you show up from, let's say, through the lens of the three colors of worldview, people who are interculturally agile. They will actually shift and we often hear from people well, at home I'm like this and when I'm at work I'm a bit more like that. So the ability to make that shift is what we call being interculturally agile. So it's really important to recognize these are not personality assessments or personality frameworks. They are very situational and learning to shift is important.

Marco Blankenburgh: 35:09

The only dilemma and that sort of is playing in the background. Sometimes the work environment forces you to shift in ways that you might even feel uncomfortable with, and that is something to watch out for. I would say can't tell you know fans showing up culturally beautifully when he was in India and then shifting back to a strong power fear orientation in his first comment on the country and the conflict with Pakistan. But I think what we sometimes see is that the work environment pushes you into a certain cultural way of behaving and initially you sort of you know, you sort of go with it. But then you realize, actually I don't want to be like that, or I don't want to be engaging with my colleagues like that, and that's where it's so incredibly important to know we always talk about your hidden line in the sand.

Marco Blankenburgh: 36:13

What's my line in the sand? To say I cannot go any further with this, because that's the danger you become so culturally agile that you just ebb and flow with whatever happens, and that's not healthy. And I still remember I was working on a team where I discovered what was happening on the team and I actually eventually decided to disengage because I had my line in the sand, so to speak, and I realized what, the way they were doing things. I was not going to be able to change it and but I didn't want to cross that line together with them and, but I didn't want to cross that line together, uh, with them.

Rana Nejem: 36:54

Yeah, it reminds me of an arabic saying, a thing we have in arabic, and it goes something along the lines of um, if you, when you um cohabit or live with a group for 40 days, you either become like them, you become one of them, you become like them, or, if the gap is too big, you leave. So it depends on how big that gap is, but the environment that you're in really does have that impact on a person. I think we still have a bit more time. Let's look at some of the other world leaders there's so many that have been at loggerheads with each other and let's look at that through the three colors of worldview lens to help us understand how other world leaders are responding to what's happening.

Marco Blankenburgh: 37:49

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's really important, and that's one question that people have asked. So is the leadership of China also power fear oriented? And actually, when you dig into it, they are not. They could easily be perceived that way, but honor shame is still the main driver in Xi Jinping's way of operating. What happens, though, if you shame somebody like him, the Chinese Communist Party or China as a nation, like the comment that Vance made about Chinese peasants?

Marco Blankenburgh: 38:34

It was fascinating to watch that, because that was one of the few things that the Chinese government allowed to go viral on Weibo. So they, of course, control social media, but that particular clip they almost they said this is how the US thinks about us, and if you now search online, there's lots of memes related to that peasant comment. Why was that allowed to go viral on Weibo? Why were so many memes created? Because it shamed the whole country, and that's where the response came from. So, yes, if you shame somebody, the response they give can sometimes feel like a power fear response, but it's a response that was triggered by shame, and I think that's something really, really important to understand. So, when Xi Jinping has many speeches and the good thing about AI, as many speeches. And the good thing about AI with our own engine, we can search in every language. So, for instance, there is a strong sense of rejuvenating the Chinese nation. That was one of the things.

Marco Blankenburgh: 39:49

When Xi Jinping came to power, that was one of his things, and he called it the greatest dream of all Chinese in modern time. So it's very much a community accountability thing. It's us together putting China on the map and we all put our shoulders under it. And when you look at the memes that have been created as a result of the peasant comment, it's always about well, look at how these peasants have created the fastest bullet trains in the world, and look how these peasants have created one of the best aeronautical programs in the world, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, technology, robotics, the car industry. So look at what all these peasants all can do.

Marco Blankenburgh: 40:43

So it really triggers that shame mechanism and that's how they respond. And what I think is happening is that, as a result of that, what I think is happening is that, as a result of that, the de-escalation has become very difficult. And if you look at the announcements a few days ago about tariffs being diminished, the first thing that happened was China said America came to us and asked for meetings and America said no, the Chinese came to us and asked for meetings. So, neither you know, it was like a hooblings first contest between the two countries. But the damage done in terms of the amount of shame that was, that was projected onto China, onto its leadership, onto the Communist Party, that will take a very long time to mend and heal and maybe, you know, we might not see it in our lifetime.

Rana Nejem: 41:41

It depends what happens in the next few weeks. Very interesting perspective. It really. Heike sheds a lot of light on it. So I can't let this pass without asking you about Trump's current visit to Saudi.

Marco Blankenburgh: 41:57

Oh yeah, yeah, it's happening right now.

Rana Nejem: 42:00

It's happening right now, and so, looking at what's going on, it's just been yesterday, so have you seen any kind of anything, any reactions that show a lack of cultural intelligence or cultural awareness?

Marco Blankenburgh: 42:19

well, well, let's start with with I. I must commend the saudis. They did a wonderful job knowing or maybe they don't use the same language as we do here on as we're talking, but they know how to impress a leader like Trump and really, in a positive way, make him feel important, respected. So it started with the F-16s from the Saudi Air Force guiding the Air Force One into Riyadh. And, by the way, f-16s are built in the US and sold by the US to Saudi, so he sees the planes they sold flying next to his Air Force One. And then, when he landed, there was a 21 salute gun serenade. That is the highest honor within the military 21 shots. So that was really important.

Marco Blankenburgh: 43:18

And then, from an Arabian point of view, the prime of the prime of the royal, white Arabian horses accompanied his limousine to the palace. That was also a sign of bestowing honor. And don't forget the purple carpet. That was another clever move by the Saudis to create that sense of royalty. It wasn't red, it was purple. And historically, if you look at the color purple used by royals, the Romans were famous for that, and so there was a lot of symbolism. Uh, there was even a mobile mcdonald's truck available in case they really understand what they're dealing with but what was?

Marco Blankenburgh: 44:08

when it comes to intercultural moments, uh uh, those who know the Middle East the first coffee served, typically in one of those small cups, is very important, and a golden rule is you drink that coffee you have to, especially the first pour, and there is a quick way to get out of a second pour if you don't want, and you wiggle your cup and give it back with your right hand. So what happened yesterday is that four people were sitting there. The servers came with the coffee and the cups. Everybody got one Rubio was there, trump, mbs and one other Saudi official and everybody did what you're supposed to do you drink the coffee and then you wiggle it and give it back to the waiter.

Marco Blankenburgh: 44:56

And Trump was sitting there with his cup in hand and he didn't quite know what to do. And then he saw that the other three people's cups were taken away and his cup wasn't taken away, which for the insiders that means he, because he wasn't, he didn't drink from it yet it would be disrespectful for the waiter to take his cup away. But then Trump looked around. You could see it on the video. He looked around and said what's happening here? Why is my cup not taken? And then he just put it on the table and he continued the conversation with MBS.

Marco Blankenburgh: 45:27

It was just a fascinating moment. If you know the Middle East, it's like, oh, he wasn't briefed on that particular moment. So, yeah, I thought that was fascinating. But I was very, very impressed with the Saudis and, of course, the big dilemma right now is the jumbo jet gift from Qatar. It's going to be very interesting to see how that honorable gift with a purpose is now going to be managed by the US government and there's a lot of debate and it has hit the Senate several times already, so it's going to be fascinating to see how they navigate that.

Rana Nejem: 46:11

That's going to be very, very interesting. Yes, so I think we're conscious of time. I want to. I just have one last question I get to start to wrap it up. Well, it seems that, with everything that's happening although maybe you know, technology and the media seem to be, we think, might have been bringing us closer together, but the contrary is actually happening right now there's more walls that are being built, there's more misunderstandings, there's more everything is broken actually, and this complete lack of understanding across the different cultures. What can we do? What, what can? How can you help us to actually be part of the, the good forces that are building those bridges of understanding between our cultures, and to help us to prepare to deal the the world that we have today?

Marco Blankenburgh: 47:18

yeah, well, there's been people that have said in the past well, we're becoming so global, we'll all become the same culture. And then people said, as a result of covid, you know, becoming interculturally agile will not be as necessary anymore, and the opposite is, we're actually seeing walls go up. We see identity crisis happening more frequently and belonging becomes an issue then. So, as a result of that of course I'm biased because I've been in the intercultural intelligence field for 30 plus years, but I see all around us, every continent we work, there's a need for more intercultural agility. People who understand, people who can perceive what's happening and who can actually build bridges, deescalate, who can build culture. That's one of our, our most important contributors.

Marco Blankenburgh: 48:18

I think, um, that the people who work, we work with, and the people who are certified, like yourself, they are really good at building culture and and we desperately need that in the world we need bridge builders and we find that, yeah, politics sometimes can be holding us back, but starting small, starting at home, starting with your friends we're not a perfect family, but building a healthy culture at home and teaching our kids. Some of our colleagues are doing the same. Start with if you have kids, teach them how to be culture creators and use that with your friends and extend it into work and get the skills and, of course, we would love to talk to you about that and we have lots and lots of information available but it starts small. It starts with small tools. A lot of what we do are just small tools that moved in the needle a little bit. Create better conversations, draw better conclusions, keep the conversation going where in other situations, you might have already disengaged, and that's what we need in this world.

Rana Nejem: 49:36

So it starts with all of us. Self-awareness is the first step. So for each one of us to to take an honest look inside ourself and to really understand what's going on in here, what are the lenses that I'm wearing that's making me judge things around me in a different way, and and then with that, we're able to then adjust our behavior to understand the culturally motivated behavior of others and, as you said, definitely start small in our home and in our workplace. If we do that, there's that ripple effect that I strongly believe in.

Marco Blankenburgh: 50:14

Yes, thank you so happy we could have this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel, or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. If any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you, you'll find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you'd like to learn more about getting certified in intercultural intelligence and how you can become more interculturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworkscom. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, shelley Reinhardt, rajita Raj, nita Rodriguez, karen Kondon and special thanks to Matthew Blankenberg for audio production, rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for helping produce this podcast.