Marco Blankenburgh: 0:01

he once called me and he said hey, marco, I'm stuck with a coaching relationship. I can't help my coachee discover why she is in the situation that she's in at work. I think it's intercultural. Would you mind just spending half an hour with her and see if you could use your intercultural lens to unlock it? So I said sure, and so we got on a call and it became clear very quickly that there was a cultural disconnect between her and her colleagues and I started to ask her questions and I started to feel that there were maybe some of the 12 dimensions at play.

Marco Blankenburgh: 0:49

And it became there were actually two dimensions and one of them was the status dimension. She was a senior leader in a financial institution, but she was the only person from her cultural heritage and she was a woman in a senior position in a financial institution, and the status dimension was, you know, flashing light, you know bright, as she was speaking about her situation. Welcome to the unlocking cultural agility podcast, where we bring you insights and stories from some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners working around the world to help you become interculturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, marco blankenberg, international director of knowledge works, where, every day, we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:58

Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility podcast. We're so glad you're back with us, and today we are recording the second session on the 12 dimensions of culture. So if you have not listened to the first, we just encourage you to stop. Right now. Listen to the first one, which goes into so much detail and depth about each dimension, great stories. But we're here today with Marco Blankenberg, the International Director of KnowledgeWorks, and he's going to walk us through kind of the 12 dimensions on a much deeper level, how you can use them in just so many ways. So we're going to start off with that. Welcome, Marco. Great to have you back.

Marco Blankenburgh: 2:44

Yeah, it is great to be back, especially since we get to do part two of the 12 Dimensions.

Shelley Reinhart: 2:49

Yes, I've been looking forward to this, Really looking forward to this. We went in a lot of detail last session but just to start us off, could you refresh where we left off in part one and sort of um?

Marco Blankenburgh: 3:06

yeah, go through them again, yeah yeah, and we do indeed, as you said, shelly encourage people to to listen to the first one. But if you say I'm just going to keep going, then, uh, here's a mini summary. So the 12 dimensions are part of our intercultural agility framework. We we call it the ICI framework and it's trying to give you a language, a neutral language, that answers the question who am I as a cultural human being? So the two tools combined the three colors of worldview and the 12 dimensions or the cultural mapping inventory give you a comprehensive framework. So what we always say if you have those two tools in hand, you can first of all answer that question for yourself who am I as a cultural human being? Gives you a language, gives you a framework, gives you measurable points, but also you can pretty much figure out, I would say, 95% of any intercultural situation using this framework.

Marco Blankenburgh: 4:10

And we talked about the 12 dimensions last time. They are continua or opposites, they have two polarities, but you're typically anywhere on that spectrum of that polarity. There are 12 of them and even yesterday, somebody saying this was amazing. How do I remember these 12? And we do have a cheat sheet of a quick summary of all of them. And, yes, 12 is a lot, but we felt we wanted something that really gives you all the language you need to explain intercultural situations.

Marco Blankenburgh: 4:47

So yes, 12 is a little bit of a long list, but I can guarantee you, once you get familiar with them, it is so helpful to have all 12. And we made it a little bit harder for ourselves by sticking to the 12. But the comprehensiveness of it is beautiful. It works so incredibly well and we gave some examples in the first episode on how that came about, because we stand on the shoulders of fantastic people who've gone before us in the 80s and 90s in discovering how we quantify and explain cultural differences.

Marco Blankenburgh: 5:24

The only difference with knowledge works is we took it to the personal level. So the 12 dimensions, combined with the three pillars, are really there to help you first answer that question who am I as a cultural human being? Not negating the fact that we all have a passport. We all belong to certain cultural groupings in society and that's important. But what we have discovered in our work in over 70 countries around the world is that that is not always a best starting point to start a new relationship. So what we're saying is start with who's that person in front of you, be curious, ask them questions, discover, get to know, build that relationship and in the context of that relationship you might discover affiliations they have or how proud they are about their passport or not, and all these other things.

Marco Blankenburgh: 6:22

But do that in the context of relationship. So we're sort of reversing what is the normal way of engaging. Hey, where are you from to know, be curious about the unique person, their unique journey that is in front of you?

Shelley Reinhart: 6:41

yes, I love that. I love that. That is our focus at KnowledgeWorks and this assessment really helps do that. It really gives us the language. So what is it not for? What are the 12 dimensions? How can it should not be used. Is there any thoughts on that before we begin?

Marco Blankenburgh: 7:03

Yeah, yeah, the key here is that we've purposefully over the years now, where we've done thousands of these assessments, we really don't want to use it to start sort of painting the world map with these 12 dimensions. We really want to stay true to this core idea at KnowledgeWorks that we are all on a unique cultural journey and we want our tools to be used for that purpose. So don't start saying, oh, all Argentinians are like this and all Australians are like that. They don't exist. The average Argentinian doesn't exist. The average Australian doesn't exist. The average argentinian doesn't exist. The average australian doesn't exist.

Marco Blankenburgh: 7:46

There are generalizations you can make about countries and regions of the world, but we work predominantly with ngos, academic institutions, corporate entities, communities of faith, and in there we we want human beings to connect with human beings, and only then do we want to say now, use what you've learned to build relationship, a relational bridge, and then use the same tools to build culture together, and that's really beautiful. So that's where we wanted people to take the tools and that's why we have group reports for both the Three Colors of Worldview and the cultural mapping inventory. So please don't. Also, the other thing I wanted to say is that there are.

Marco Blankenburgh: 8:33

Yeah, some people have a strong preference for, let's say, direct versus indirect communication, but at the same time we we often have at least a little bit of one side and maybe a lot of the other side, or we're somewhere in the middle where we have 50-50 spread between direct and indirect communication. So you can't just say, oh, all people from this country are direct and all the people from this other country are indirect. So we need to be a bit more nuanced and not so black and white. When we use 12 dimensions and even if that's the other thing, even if somebody is, let's say, shows strong direct in communication on their assessment, the tool doesn't tell you how easy it is for that person to pull out an indirect communication repertoire.

Marco Blankenburgh: 9:34

So it's just a preference point. And the last thing I want to say it's definitely not a personality tool, so don't use it to say oh, this is my, this is the cultural version of my es Briggs or of my the cultural version of my my disc profile.

Marco Blankenburgh: 9:54

It's just a moment in time and we expect actually that you learn to shift. So even if you were an indirect communicator when you took the assessment, let's say learning to become more direct if that's necessary. That's our goal, that's what we call intercultural agility, and that's where it becomes fun to use the tools, because that's where it becomes very practical and very valuable for relationships for organizations, for jobs, that people have projects, et cetera.

Shelley Reinhart: 10:38

That's so good, thank you. And how is this tool connected to the three colors of worldview assessment? They're separate, they're different. How do they connect? They're separate, they're different.

Marco Blankenburgh: 10:44

How do they connect? They do connect but we haven't written a book about it because the way they connect, there are like infinite possibilities doing that which empowers me or gives me influence, those three drivers, discovering which ones are your primary secondary drivers is really important. And then if you complete the 12 dimensions in the cultural mapping inventory afterwards you start to look at both of them together. Typically the people that that do that, they start to connect the dots themselves. They will say, oh, I'm showing up in this way on the three colors world view, I'm showing up in this way on the 12 dimensions. This makes sense for me in the following way so we always lead people into their own self-discovery.

Marco Blankenburgh: 11:44

We don't want to dictate that to them. We don't want to say if you're here on the three colors, you must be in this preference point on the 12th dimension. So unfortunately it's not simple enough let's put it that way to write the book about it, the book about it. But it is beautiful if you can spend the time just workshopping or coaching people through that to find the connect between the two tools and it's super enriching. Three Colors is more your deeper cultural drivers. The 12 Dimensions is more your pragmatic, cultural day-to-day thinking, speaking and acting.

Shelley Reinhart: 12:24

Yes, thank you for clarifying that, and I love the nuance. That is not a one-to-one correlation.

Marco Blankenburgh: 12:32

We stay open.

Shelley Reinhart: 12:33

Yeah, so let's move to relationship management. And let's talk about how the 12 dimensions of culture just practically help us in relationships.

Marco Blankenburgh: 12:48

Yeah, there's so many examples. I think even just a few days ago, I had a conversation with a gentleman who was using the assessment with somebody from the Latin part of the world, and they had a very interesting conversation that taught me a lot. One of our dimensions is called expression, and expression has to do with reveal versus conceal and it's all about can you express your, the emotions that you feel inside? And the person that that was, uh, was looking at this said, yeah, but I, I am very boisterous, I'm very present, and you know there's lots of laughter and jokes and banter back and forth, but I show up concealed. On the expression dimension and it was really, really interesting. So we started talking about it and we realized, yes, sometimes culturally, the culture gives us permission to be more animated.

Marco Blankenburgh: 14:09

Hall talks about polychronic and that adds to the boisterous nature of the culture, where people can speak on top of each other and conversations go back and forth and they seem to be interrupting each other. But that's just how people communicate, um, and so there's a lot of energy there. But then, when we dug deeper into it, this dimension became really helpful. So it's like, yeah, but what if you're upset with somebody? Or what if you're you're feeling down or you're actually struggling with something you're worried? Would you then reveal that? And she thought about it and she said no, I wouldn't. We are very lively and boisterous and you know there's lots of energy there, but those deeper emotions you would only reveal in a closed circle or in a very high trust situation, and that was incredibly helpful.

Marco Blankenburgh: 15:09

So, looking at the reveal-conceal of emotions, the expression dimension, she realized that she was actually concealing on her emotions, despite the fact that she was a very lively communicator because in her culture, despite the fact that she was a very lively communicator, because in her culture, that was encouraged. And I thought that was a really helpful distinction to make, where there are certain cultures where emotions are expressed and the assumption is if you express those emotions, that's how you truly feel. In other cultures, what happens is emotions are a tool. So you express those emotions, but they are actually a tool to negotiate the price to get what you want, to negotiate the price to get what you want, to keep the relationship moving forward. There could be a whole bunch of reasons for it, but emotions are a tool and maybe only in closed circle, high trust situations would emotions be truly an expression of how you feel. So I thought that was just a really interesting discovery around reveal, conceal emotions in more of a coaching situation yes, oh, I love that example.

Shelley Reinhart: 16:32

That's yes, that's really helpful. Yes, um, what about just one other thought about of this way that this could be expressed? What about dress code?

Marco Blankenburgh: 16:43

how is it?

Shelley Reinhart: 16:44

viewed and what's its purpose.

Marco Blankenburgh: 16:47

That comes up all the time and the dimension we typically use first. Now, there are multiple dimensions connected to dress code, but the one that I find quite helpful to use is the accountability dimension. So it's both a combination of accountability, as in community, versus individual. I'll bring the other ones in. So, when you dress, what is the purpose of what you wear? Is the purpose of what I wear an expression of who I am or who I want to be perceived to be as an individual, or is what I wear a representation of the people I belong to, so that we call that more community accountability? So am I accountable to myself when it comes to dress code and I can pretty much wear anything that I deem fit for the situation from my perspective, or is it really about the community? I represent, the company, the tribe, the country, and that determines what I would wear in that situation?

Marco Blankenburgh: 18:06

and it's fascinating how often, especially people who come from an individual accountability perspective when it comes to dress code, they come into a community accountability setting and then it causes this internal turmoil where they're forced, quote unquote, to change their dress code to fit in with the community.

Marco Blankenburgh: 18:32

But then they say well, I'm losing part of myself, I'm losing part of my ability to express myself to identify as a unique human being, um, and that is hard, especially, you know, if, if, if you use dress to express um, and making that adjustment is not easy. But we found that using the accountability dimension is typically very helpful. And the other thing that is linked to that is the destiny dimension directed destiny, where typically authority determines what you will do, or directive destiny is like I'm in charge of what I will do, what I will say, and learning that in certain environments there is more of a directed destiny influence on what you wear and the most obvious place is, for instance, in the military, in the police force, the fire brigade, your lieutenant or the chief tells you what to wear, and if you show up in jeans as a police officer, you will be told to go home.

Marco Blankenburgh: 19:54

So it's directed destiny as opposed to directive destiny. But when it comes to the work environment, that's not always easy to navigate. But at least if people have the right language to talk about it, that neutral language, then I find people might struggle with it, but they might then say, okay, I get it. This is a very different way of looking at dress and what it does and what its function is, and I have a neutral language to talk about it now, and then it becomes easier for people to potentially make the changes.

Shelley Reinhart: 20:31

It's so good, it's so practical and instead of making it a big issue big HR issue, it's just. If you use this language to discuss it, there's so much more understanding around it. That's huge.

Marco Blankenburgh: 20:46

And people might still decide I'm not going to work here. Then yeah. At least they make an informed choice yeah.

Shelley Reinhart: 20:53

Yes, I just had a thought. You know, I live in Lancaster County, pennsylvania, where there are a lot of Amish and they are told very specifically what to dress, how to dress, what to wear, and they are set apart by the way they dress. They're immediately distinguishable. Is that so similar to what you're saying?

Marco Blankenburgh: 21:14

There are other cultures like that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a great example because I've never been in an Amish community but I've seen, you know, the movies, the pictures, etc. And it's very much community accountability which is expressed in their dress code. But it's also directed from above and you know so, from a directed destiny point of view, there are correction mechanisms in place if you don't.

Marco Blankenburgh: 21:42

So, that's also part of the…. And I mean, look, it's the same in the world of sports. If you belong to a sports club and you don't wear the sweater of that sports club when you enter the field, you're in trouble.

Shelley Reinhart: 21:59

Yes, I've seen that firsthand. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's so fascinating, that's really helpful. So that's one very practical example of how the 12 dimensions can impact the way you see, of how the 12 dimensions can impact the way you see certain things. Let's talk about coaching. Um, how would it, how would it impact like a coaching situation? How could you use them in that way?

Marco Blankenburgh: 22:26

well, we, we actually, uh, three years ago, we, we designed a whole advanced coach certification program, the certificate, in.

Marco Blankenburgh: 22:35

Intercultural Coaching, where coaches learn to take these tools and bring them into the coaching engagement. And the fascinating thing you initially think, oh, this is going to help the coach better, which is true, but actually the first thing that happens is the coach learns to reflect on who they are as a coach and what they bring into the relationship, and then they discover some of their biases and that they lean into a certain solution. So they might ask questions like what's the right thing to do in this situation? What do do you think which is a very innocence guilt on the three colors of worldview oriented question. So we're working with coaches and we have over 200 coaches in our network. That's the first thing they always say.

Marco Blankenburgh: 23:26

When I get exposed to these tools, I start to reflect on how I position myself, how my thought patterns work in the coaching relationship, the type of questions I come up with, how I process what the coachee is saying. So it always starts there and, to give you an example, one of our coaches who was not familiar with the intercultural framework. He once called me and he said hey, marco, I'm stuck with a coaching relationship. I can't help my coachee discover why she is in the situation that she's in at work. I think it's intercultural. Would you mind just spending half an hour with her and see if you could use your intercultural lens to unlock it?

Marco Blankenburgh: 24:15

So I said sure, and so we got on a call and it became clear very quickly that there was a cultural disconnect between her and her colleagues and I started to ask her questions and I started to feel that there were maybe some of the 12 dimensions at play. And it became there were maybe some of the 12 dimensions at play and it it became there were actually two dimensions and one of them was the, the status dimension. She was a senior leader in a financial institution, but she was the only person from her cultural heritage and she was a woman in a senior position in a financial institution and the status dimension was, you know, flashing light, you know, bright as she was speaking about her situation.

Marco Blankenburgh: 25:05

So I introduced it to her and I said well, here's one of the dimensions. It's about ascribed and achieved and and I explained the two polarities ascribed as years of service fraternity gender can also play a role. Achieved is you just have the skills, you've got the credentials, you've worked hard and you earn it. Earn it. And she was almost in tears, actually saying, yeah, I will never penetrate that group of ascribed status leaders because they don't see me as part of it. And we started unpacking it from that point on and that really opened up a difficult understanding of the situation. In the end, actually, she resigned and started her own advisory company and, looking back, it was actually an amazing unlocking of a new future for her. It was not easy, but the language of the 12 dimensions helped her realize I need to get out of this situation. I will never penetrate that group of ascribed status leaders that I'm not part of. There's too many hurdles ahead of me and you wish that that wasn't necessary, but she's now a very successful independent financial advisor.

Shelley Reinhart: 26:31

Wow, oh, that's so practical again. So she's walking into this not understanding what's happening. She's confused and frustrated, but then, once she had the language to talk about it, it became clear what she needed to do, almost yeah.

Marco Blankenburgh: 26:47

Yeah, yeah.

Shelley Reinhart: 26:49

Wow, yeah, I'm thinking.

Marco Blankenburgh: 26:51

I'm thinking of a of another example in coaching where, um, where and some people might find this a little bit contentious, but a dimension, in the coaching world at least, that is often misunderstood is the destiny dimension, with directive versus directed destiny. So directed is you sort of get told what to do. It could be your boss, could be a higher authority, could be the system. Directive destiny is more I'm in charge. But the word agency is often used in coaching.

Marco Blankenburgh: 27:43

And don't get me wrong, I believe in agency, but agency needs to be cast in the cultural context. But the problem is the word agency is often cast in a directive destiny light. In other words, agency is I carve my destiny. I need to have my voice heard, I add my voice to the mix and I'm part of the decision-making process, especially when it comes to my future. And this is a huge issue in coaching. And I now meet more and more coaches who get it, who say even me as a coach, the role I have in the conversation, one of our previous facilitators and counselors. She always used to say are you a sage on the stage, which is more directed destiny you give people your wise counsel, or are you a guide on the side which is more directed destiny you you give people your wise counsel or are you a guide on the side, which is more directive destiny?

Marco Blankenburgh: 28:42

I help you, I nudge you and I help you discover your destiny, but you articulate it, you find it, you drive it and, as coaches, to learn that you need to be the guide on the side, as well as the sage on the stage sometimes and learning how to culturally decide when to be what. And I meet more maybe it's because I meet predominantly international coaches who do a lot of intercultural coaching and most of them are saying, yeah, we often get in that situation where if somebody comes from a directed destiny, cultural heritage, they they hire a coach because they believe the coach will give them wise counsel and, in some cases, tell them what to do.

Marco Blankenburgh: 29:26

Um, and but the classical coaching yeah, the classical coaching fraternity says no, no, no, no. The answer is within you. Ask the questions the coach. He will discover the path to take and I believe actually it's a hundred percent, both as a as an inter culturally agile coach. You need to discover when. Which path is the appropriate path to walk with your coaching that's refreshing.

Shelley Reinhart: 29:55

Yes, so it can. So it can be both. It can be both.

Marco Blankenburgh: 29:59

Which can be confusing, because it does mean that sometimes you can see the coachee is just longing for you to say well, have you ever considered this? Yes, thank you, I'm going to try it. And then off they go.

Shelley Reinhart: 30:17

Yes, just how difficult is it for someone raised in a directed destiny to then move to somewhere new in a directive destiny Directed versus directive.

Marco Blankenburgh: 30:33

That seems like it would be so challenging. It is hard. It's really hard because it can really in it. Look, the reality is a directed destiny environment can be super efficient. Some more toxic environments, you would get that. But in a healthy, directed destiny environment, the leader listens to the people, walks around, gets the stories, gathers their information and, as a result, when they do tell you what to do, there is thought behind it, there's information they've gathered. It's not just like go and do this and because I'm the boss, I'm telling you what to do. So, healthy, directed destiny environments, people trust the system. They respect that. Leaders have their best interest in mind. That could be mom or dad, that could be the teacher in the school, that could be the religious leader or my boss or the coach on the on the sports field. And if that all of a sudden fall, falls away, and now you need to figure it out yourself and you need to drive it. And if you don't drive it, people are saying, oh, you're not proactive enough. Uh, so it's.

Marco Blankenburgh: 31:51

It's actually yeah, and it can be really difficult to make that shift if you move from directed destiny to a directive destiny context. I see that and by the way I see that with international students a lot so even our oldest daughter.

Marco Blankenburgh: 32:10

she's now graduated. She was in a super intercultural university and she said direct to destiny students who came into their university was everything is you pursue everything yourself, even your subjects of your degree program. You could choose them yourself. You could switch, swap out subjects if you wanted to and you had a good argument for it. You could. And some students just it's like a deer in the headlight, they just didn't know what to do with that.

Shelley Reinhart: 32:48

I think that's so helpful to understand and to empathize with the struggle that would be, you know as you're working with people in so many different ways, as a teacher, you know, and lots of professions. And speaking of that brings me to the one, sort of on the top of my mind, which is conflict management. How do the 12 dimensions of culture help us in conflict and that, how you know, navigate it?

Marco Blankenburgh: 33:18

yeah, it's such an important subject in today's world. We have a lot of conflict, a lot of friction, um, I I actually just had a month ago I was with a leadership team, um, and they specifically asked we need to talk about conflict management and we have a bit of an understanding of it from a psychological point of view, but we want to unpack a framework that help us understand it from a cultural point of view. So can we accurately quantify and, once we can, can we at least start to build up our, our toolbox to deal with it? Now you could argue that, out of the 12 dimensions, probably all of them could lead to a conflict, but probably the most important ones some of them we have already talked about, but the most important ones are probably four or five out of the 12 that very often lead to conflict.

Marco Blankenburgh: 34:18

Or, if I'm not carefully crafting the engagement or the structure of my words and my talking points, I can actually be the instigator of conflict. So, for instance, decision making is a big one. So, for instance, decision-making is a big one. Very often, when companies start moving internationally, they will move in and out of contexts where either the rules are rigidly adhered to or where the rules are more or less a tool to help relationship move along, and in the? If the latter is the case, then very likely what will happen is the rules will sometimes not be applied, the rules will be interpreted slightly different, and that can lead to really, really angry explosions.

Marco Blankenburgh: 35:17

So, um, it can you know, I I remember the um, the uh one situation which had to do with, with, uh, the sales interface. So the, the, the rules of selling and how sales is done and how promises are made and how discounts are agreed upon were made in one country more rules based on its decision making, and knowing your cousins and knowing people in the industry and having a coffee with them, building up a long legacy of relationships, and that sort of greases the wheels, not in a negative way. That's just how business is done. And then when you all of a sudden get those marching orders from headquarters, it leads to conflict.

Marco Blankenburgh: 36:16

There was one situation and this is this is already dipping into the sales side of things. So remember, we worked with a company I won't mention any names, but a company that was very strict on the rules, very rules based, in-making, but the whole sales force came from more relationship-based decision-making parts of the world and the leader, the sales director, allowed us to work with over 100 of their salespeople and we had the privilege of doing the cultural mapping inventory with them. And we had the privilege of doing the cultural mapping inventory with them and we discovered very quickly they're mainly community accountability oriented and relationship based in their decision making and the company was rules based in its decision making and held each salesperson individually accountable for their performance.

Shelley Reinhart: 37:19

Wow, that's some conflict.

Marco Blankenburgh: 37:21

It was culturally an impossibility. It was so hard for them because they wanted to sell by spending time with a potential customer, invite them for a coffee, sometimes for a meal, build a relationship, hear about their family and their life and get to know them and then eventually, maybe after three meetings, a sale might happen. And that was not possible. And on top of that, they came from a culture where community accountability was the norm. So you join a sales team. What do you do? You share information with each other because you are held accountable as a community, our team or our department. We perform together. What did the company do? They held each person individually accountable, so it felt so. It was so difficult for them because all of a sudden, by sharing information about clients, that's what they culturally wanted to do. But by doing that they would actually run the risk that their colleague would clock the sale and they wouldn't clock the sale risk that their colleague would clock the sale and they wouldn't clock the set. And they felt so miserable because of that, because you know they. It's like betraying their own cultural Heritage, where you share and you do things together and now all of a sudden, nope, this is my little box, you don't get any of my information because I'm going to be measured on this. And uh, yeah, so we, we.

Marco Blankenburgh: 38:55

When we presented this information to the team leader, he was actually shocked and he realized we can't change what headquarters requires from us, but locally we have to create more us mechanisms we mechanisms, because the worst thing that was happening for them is that they didn't share sales information, client intel, so that they could work together to bring the client in. So they had to shift the whole process around. But it started with a big conflict, to the point where some of the salespeople actually were paying out of pocket to spend time with the client, so they would pay for their coffee or for the meals that they were having with the clients. Because they said that you know, I can't just change the way I've. I've done sales all my life. This is how you do it. So, yeah, they were. Some of them are paying serious money out of pocket just to be true to themselves, culturally wow, marco.

Shelley Reinhart: 39:54

That is so interesting and really sheds light on what is happening under the surface that if you don't have the language to describe it, it's so difficult to pinpoint what the problem is. Would you say? That's true, oh?

Marco Blankenburgh: 40:11

absolutely. Yeah, you were asking about conflict. I think this is especially true with the communication dimension. I think it's yeah, shelley, you've been in sessions as well and you know the direct versus indirect communication piece. When it comes to conflict, it's one of those very quick triggers triggers.

Marco Blankenburgh: 40:36

So, yes, and I'm I'm making it a bit black and white now, but by and large, direct communicators see themselves as more sophisticated, more efficient, more quote-unquote, true to themselves than indirect communicators. And then indirect communicators, they see themselves as more sophisticated, more relationship-centric, more harmony-oriented, and they find the direct communicators very crude, very offensive, not relationship-centric, very transactional, and when people don't understand that, both are equally valuable. We had that with that team that I was with a month ago where they are dealing with a majority of their staff are indirect communicators, and we found that a lot of the leaders did not know how to read between the lines or did not know how to ask gentle, clarifying questions that wasn't putting the other person on the spot. They also were bad storytellers. Indirect communicators are really good storytellers. So we had to work with the leadership team to say well, as a direct communicator, you're transactional, it's about the facts, it's about the decision, it's about the efficiency and, as a result, your storytelling sucks. You have to learn how to.

Marco Blankenburgh: 42:00

You have to learn how to storytell, because the majority of your workforce is more of an indirect communication background. And just recognizing they're both beautiful, they're both necessary and they're both depending on the moment and what we need to talk about. You need to be able to switch between direct and indirect. And if you start saying those indirect communicators, they're useless, they're withholding information and they're doing it on purpose, they must have an agenda. And then the flip side, the indirect communicator saying those direct communicators they don't care about relationship and they're rude and unsophisticated, and that's, of course, leading to conflict.

Marco Blankenburgh: 42:44

Recognizing they're both yes equally important, and then saying how do I learn this? How do I learn to stretch across the dimension? And the more intercultural your team is, the more you need to.

Shelley Reinhart: 43:00

And that sort of segues into managing our stakeholders, so not only the people we work with, but what have you seen in that realm with the 12 dimensions and how to manage?

Marco Blankenburgh: 43:14

it. Yeah, it was fascinating. I was talking to an old colleague of ours last week and he mentioned oh, I've just come back from China, and he went on to tell his story and how valuable intercultural agility is for him. So he went to China with a friend of his, but then he got all kinds of business ideas. He was supporting his friend in the business he wanted to set up between their two countries of his, but then he got all kinds of business ideas. He was supporting his friend in the business he wanted to set up between their two countries and then he realized, wow, there's a lot of potential here. So he started to visit specific factories and build the relational bridge and he realized that the need to spend time was super, super important. So I asked him, once he had explained, he said, yeah, I visited these factories and had tea with the manager there and the founder there, and he had a few factories that he singled out, so to speak. And I asked him so what are you going to do next? Well, he said I'm going to keep the conversation going, going to make it warm, but then I'm going to schedule my next trip very soon to visit again. And I asked him. So how often do you think you need to visit? Oh, he said I need to go at least three times. And you know he's worked on on our team so he knows our framework inside out. But what people don't realize very often is if they don't know the intercultural agility framework, they they will go for that one visit and they will say, okay, I've selected my factory, I'm going to ask that factory to give me a quote. They're going to produce X number of widgets for me, they're going to ship it over and we're in business. And it doesn't work that way.

Marco Blankenburgh: 45:09

One of our earliest practitioners and we actually did a podcast with him he became one of the most successful manufacturers of musical instruments for manufacturers of musical instruments and he's developed. He's built violins and cellos and and brass and guitars and basses and you name it, but all through outsourced manufacturers and he's done that over 20, 30 years and he won some awards with. But he came to our ICI certification many years ago and he's built up a network of manufacturers all over Asia China, indonesia, vietnam, et cetera. And he also told us you know, what it takes is really building those relationships and going beyond just the business transaction which alludes to one of our 12 dimensions. So is, is our relationship just situational or are they universal?

Marco Blankenburgh: 46:14

But ian has relationships with with artisans and manufacturers or builders of musical instruments all across Asia and they trust him, he trusts them. They've done a lot of work on skill transfer. He worked with some of the top guitar designers and brought them to Asia, brought them alongside, and of course, that's a great honor to be able to do that and learn from some of the best and then actually build instruments that win awards. He just started a new brand that went into canada two years ago and their first acoustic guitar was produced through. That partnership actually won the most innovative acoustic guitar of that year and ian will say you know, I use ici, I use the 12 dimensions all the time, I use the three colors all the time to build those long-term relationships wow, I love that story and I, yeah, I love that podcast with ian and we have it on our podcast list.

Shelley Reinhart: 47:19

Excuse me, podcast list. You can listen back to that if you'd like. Um, we've been talking so much about teams, so you know, yeah, we do a lot at knowledge works with high performing intercultural team development. How do you use the 12 dimensions sort of in that realm when you're working? You've sort of mentioned it. You've mentioned a few things.

Marco Blankenburgh: 47:43

Yeah, it's an integral part of first helping people understand who they are. So who am I, who are you? As my colleague, having that neutral language, that we're talking about seeing that assessment and those preferences, but then immediately turning it around and saying, now that we understand each other better and what that means for those preferences, but then immediately turning it around and saying, now that we understand each other better and what that means for working together, now, who do we want to be? Because ultimately, you can't allow room for every possible cultural way of doing things on a team. You will have to start making decisions, otherwise it becomes a minefield. And now you're super intelligent about a minefield, but you're still going to step on a mine every now and then. So, as a team, you start with this is the, this is the full spectrum, this is the full playing field. But then you have to decide as a team who do we want to be? And that's where it all comes together in crafting culture together.

Marco Blankenburgh: 48:46

So for instance, in a retail sales situation, you might say there are certain rules when you're with the customer that we will never, ever break. But there are other rules. There is room for flexibility, and here is how you apply that flexibility. And you, as a salesperson on the on the retail floor, your flexibility goes this far. If the client wants more than what you can flex, then you take it to your supervisor or your retail manager and they might then make a discretionary choice, for instance. So you learn where you are. But then you need to decide as a team in our work, where do we want to be on each one of these 12 dimensions? But I'm thinking an example of one of the universities we worked with. They had a very big satellite campus in one of the Gulf states and the home base was in the United States, and it was a beautiful process of working with the team and they really came together and we got to the point where we had two days of just exploring each other, having a lot of fun, a lot of aha moments. We started to craft their local culture, building some boundaries and what was acceptable and unacceptable behavior, good consensus building. But then we had to was acceptable and unacceptable behavior, good consensus building. But then we had to flip it and we say, well, we are a satellite campus of a US-born university and now we have a problem because the university back home doesn't understand how we need to function in this context. So, for instance, ascribed status was important. How do you deal with students enrolling in the university who are coming from influential families? And in most cases, if you are from a achieved status environment only, all students are equal more or less, but in the Gulf that wasn't the case. So the home base unfortunately didn't understand the scribe status and that that would influence how you deal with the student and with the family. That was one thing. Another thing was how do you deal with the interface between the professor and the students?

Marco Blankenburgh: 51:25

So there was a misunderstanding. Professors coming in from the US, some of them loved sort of an open door, more egalitarian relationship with their students, but the students took that as, instead of situational relating, the students took a local version of universal relating. So in other words, they would hang out in the professor's office and they would expect that, because that was the case, they could call the professor at 10 o'clock at night and ask a question. And it totally escalated where the professors said what have I done? Why did they misinterpret my intentions so badly and why are they so? Uh, you know hawking my time, and so it was fascinating.

Marco Blankenburgh: 52:14

Just talk with the professors about the difference between how the students perceived it and what the intention of the professor was, and how you could recalibrate that. So there was, you know, home base back home misunderstanding and we talked about how to educate the home base. And then there was the disconnect between professors coming in from overseas and then lecturing locally and then not understanding the student dynamics and then realizing there is actually very lively dynamics sometimes between the parents and the professor, and knowing when that might happen. And unfortunately, the most frequent connect between parents and professor happen when the student is not doing so well and yeah, that's another one where ascribed status, especially influential families and then the student doesn't do so well, then the parents knock on the door of the professor in the hope that they can do something about the grades. And knowing how to navigate that is complex, it's not easy.

Shelley Reinhart: 53:22

Those are such great examples. Yes, you can really see it play out on that university campus and in businesses and in schools and, yeah, those are great examples. Did you want to say anything else about sales? Because sales is so tricky, so many companies struggle with this on an intercultural level. Is there anything else you just wanted to add about that?

Marco Blankenburgh: 53:48

well, maybe, maybe there's one example that comes to mind that, um, we worked with a large organization, um and um, I still remember the director of marketing came to me and she had been exposed to some of our intercultural stuff. And she came to me she said, listen, I need to present to the board and I know the board, based on what you've taught us, I know the board is very honor shame oriented and very community accountability and they want to be seen as more universal in how they relate. So how do I now structure a new marketing strategy to, on the one hand, actually sell product to our target audience, which was very diverse, and, at the same time, satisfy the owners of the business? So we talked about this and it really helped her shift the way she presented. So how do you present your marketing strategy so that the owners of the business, the name of the business, the reputation of the business would be elevated in the community? There would be, you know, the community would be proud that this business was part of their community. The family would be proud that their business belonged to them and that the marketing strategy, with all the billboards and online marketing and social media, that all of that would give people a positive reference for that family and for their community.

Marco Blankenburgh: 55:34

Um, how do you create a business where, on the one hand, you can't be friends with everybody, but create that that sense of hospitality in the marketing strategy that you know we welcome you, we have space for you and, yes, you know you'll come to us because you want to buy our products but more a universal approach to relating as opposed to a situational approach to relating, where you know customer comes in, you learn the tricks for the sales interface, you do the sale and the customer walks away. And they said we don't want that. We really want more of an African, middle Eastern style where there is a deeper commitment to the relationship than just making the sale. So it was just fun brainstorming that with her and baking that into the way she designed the marketing strategy, but then also the way she presented it to the owners. Yeah, so it was a very practical way to use the tools.

Shelley Reinhart: 56:35

Yes, I love that example and that also relates to how do we analyze policies, procedures and processes in our businesses and schools. How do we analyze them? How would the 12 dimensions sort of help us flesh that out?

Marco Blankenburgh: 56:59

Yeah, there are so many examples. Yeah, there are so many examples. You know the beauty with this framework, we can actually read a policy document or a procedure and we can pretty much predict the baseline assumptions that were behind that policy.

Marco Blankenburgh: 57:26

And then we can say well is this policy going to work for the target audience that needs to implement this? So if I give you an example that example I earlier mentioned about individual versus community accountability so the headquarters dictated this organization Salespeople are individually held accountable for their performance and if they meet performance they stay. If they overachieve, they get a bonus. If they are under performance they get a warning and they're out. And we realized very quickly with the head of sales that that procedure was wrong for the cultural context they were in and we were able to point it out. And he realized what have I done to my people? You know, their culture gets sacrificed on the basis of the procedures the company dictates. And it was very quick.

Marco Blankenburgh: 58:19

But then others are much more complex. So, for instance, we worked with an NGO in Africa. They had designed a methodology to assess if a small NGO that they wanted to partner with, if they were a safe partner, and sometimes that meant making money and resources available to them, but they wanted to assess carefully if it was safe to do so. So there was all kinds of stuff related to how healthy is your board, how healthy is your leadership team, how healthy is your financial accountability, how healthy is the way you engage with the community and the way you talk about that in your communication. How do you treat your staff? All these things very good, well thought through assessment.

Marco Blankenburgh: 59:12

But there were many places in that health assessment where they had not taken culturally into account. For instance, they used achieved status directive destiny assumptions to assess the board. So how do you become part of a board? Well, you have an incredible track record. You know the industry, you can prove that, you've worked on this project and this project and you've had this impact in the world and all these things and you've probably have some degrees behind you. And they said well, if you don't have all of that, you shouldn't be on a board. But then they realized very quickly in ascribed status, community accountability, cultures. How do you become part of a board? It's because you are a person of standing in the community, and does that mean you have a track record? Does that mean that you can point to 25 big projects that you've done in the community? Probably not. It could be there, but it doesn't have to be. Why are you on the board? Because it gives the organization standing in the community. It gives them high-level connections that they will need to get permissions and to get their job done.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:00:32

So there were many things like that in the assessment. There were the assessment of leadership, for instance. The assumption was that a leader creates an egalitarian environment around him or her, where everybody has the same voice, where everybody can give whatever feedback they feel they want to give, and we said, well, is that how leadership is done across the African continent? And in many places it's not like that. So they were assessing leaders based on more of an individual accountability, direct communication like. Especially, their feedback mechanisms were very direct communication structured and we brought them back this intercultural analysis and initially they were shocked but they were wise enough to actually make the changes needed to make their health assessment for NGOs interculturally agile. So it was not easy for them to swallow, but they were wise enough and brave enough to make the changes needed and it was just beautiful to watch.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:01:44

Oh, I love that. So that had a major impact on the way they interacted with important people. Yeah, oh, I love that. That's a great example. This has been so helpful. We've really kind of tackled very specific, practical ways that the 12 dimensions dimensions can influence the way you do business, the way you lead. This is so helpful. Thank you, marco.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:02:12

I'm sure we'll do more of this yeah, and if, if people want to know more, there's already many articles on our website. We actually have a landing page just dedicated on knowledgeworkscom, a landing page just dedicated to the 12 dimensions, and, of course, we have many facilitators around the world who can take you or your team through a discovery of this nature. Or if you say my organization needs this, I'm a coach, I'm in learning and development, I'm in organizational development. We have many people like you who join us for our certifications. So, yeah, I'm 25 years in now in doing this work and it is so exciting. It's hard work, but it's beautiful, it's and it really makes a difference in the world.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:03:04

It's worth it. It is worth taking the time to understand these things at a deeper level.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:03:12

Yes.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:03:12

So again, look us, look us up, knowledgeworkscom, also interculturalagilitycom. We'd love to talk with you further and for you to explore our certifications. If this really interests you today, take it further, you know, see what we offer and what it can do for you.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:03:31

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel, or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. If any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you, you'll find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you'd like to learn more about getting certified in intercultural intelligence and how you can become more interculturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworkscom. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, shelley Reinhardt, rajita Raj, nita Rodriguez, karen Condon and special thanks to Matthew Blankenberg for audio production, rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for helping produce this podcast.