Speaker 1: 0:00

courage, courage to have these conversations, and that's another quality that's necessary, right, as well as being a cultural learner, it takes guts to sit in the fire and say hold on, that's different. Share that with me.

Speaker 1: 0:14

You know, let me suspend my story for a moment, or let me be humble and curious, and you know it's brave, and so that's the invitation for everybody listening is to be brave, to step into courage and to have these conversations, or to say you know what? I don't know enough about this, let me go and find out more and educate myself.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, marco Blankenberg, international Director of KnowledgeWorks, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. So welcome to another episode of the Unlocking Cultural Agility podcast. And the last time we were in the studio I was with Linda Berlotte from Berlotte Group and we decided to continue the conversation because there was so much to say. So thank you for making the time, linda, to come back again. Really appreciate it and I very much look forward to part two, basically, of our conversation. So thanks for making it into the studio today.

Speaker 1: 1:43

My absolute pleasure, Marco. Thank you for inviting me back. I absolutely enjoyed that. We got out of the last podcast, sat down and carried on talking and then realized we still had a lot more to say.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, and if you haven't had a chance to listen to that first podcast where we talked about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging initiatives and our perspective on that from a global lens, please listen to that episode. But if you're jumping straight into this one, we wanted to at least do a mini summary of this previous recording and just talk a little bit about the things that we unpacked last time. So there were a number of things related to how challenging it is to design an initiative in one part of the world and then export it to another part of the world, and the imagery that we used was like the elephant on the plane and trying to make everybody do it exactly the same way, and that was an issue. Another big issue we talked about was related to how some people look at problems from a relationship-centric point of view and other people look at problems from a problem-centric point of view. Maybe you could say a little bit more about that, linda. You know, just as part of this summary.

Speaker 1: 3:07

Absolutely. We did explore that and we explored how, in some cultures, it's really important to use the right words to define an issue, to make sure that the issue is absolutely clearly defined, and usually what we find is that people with the best use of language, you know, are the masters and are seen as the owners of that issue or the experts on defining the issue. On the other side, we've got relationship focused people who will deal with issues in a very different way. They prefer to focus on the relationship and then deal with the issue. So those are challenges that emerge when those two different types of people come together.

Speaker 2: 3:46

Yes, especially when, on top of that, that starts to determine how I design a solution, and we'll come back to that. We'll have some examples of that. Another thing we noticed was the difference between thinking about solutions of diversity from an individual accountability point of view or from an individual accountability point of view or from a community accountability point of view, and how that changes what we do, how we do it, how we bring people together, how we structure the conversations, and what we found is that a lot of the diversity, equity, inclusion belonging solutions are more designed from an individual accountability perspective, and that then causes challenges, and we'll talk about that some more. Inclusion belonging solutions are more designed from an individual accountability perspective, and that then causes challenges, and we'll talk about that some more. Another thing we talked about was we used the language of the three colors of worldview and we looked at some of those solutions, and we'll give some examples today as well, in that a lot of the solutions are designed from a right-wrong, innocence-guilt perspective and as a result of that, it doesn't always work so well to then bring those initiatives to an honor-shame or a power-fear, more hierarchical perspective or context, and that leads to.

Speaker 2: 5:01

One of the other things we discussed was how can you design solutions that are both doing right by people, that are honoring people and that are empowering for all parties involved? Yeah, and we found that very few solutions actually do that well. So those were some of the things we discussed. Anything else that you that missed?

Speaker 1: 5:25

Well, no, you covered that extensively. But I think that leads us to the why we're here. Right, because we walked out of the last podcast and we thought, well, hold on a minute. And we realized that the reason why we're here is because so many of these DEI initiatives being rolled out across the globe are not working, and we've got loads of examples across the globe of these huge organizations that are either decreasing their DEI initiatives or doing away with them. And it doesn't minimize the importance for DEI to be addressed in organizations, but what it speaks to is the fact that they're not working, or not working as well as these organizations would have liked.

Speaker 2: 6:06

Yeah, and the latest example from last week was that Microsoft let go of their DEI team and they said you know that their commitment hasn't changed, but what has been tried didn't work the way they anticipated and, like you said, quite a few global firms have actually done the same. It's to the point where, when you look at job postings related to DEI on some of the major platforms between 22 and 23, it already dropped by 44% and we believe, when you look at 2024, that trend will continue. So something's shifting. People are realizing certain things are not working, even in the countries where a lot of these initiatives are designed and originate from, like North America and Europe. Even there, people are frustrated. We're saying you know, this is not moving us forward. And then, on top of that, we sit on the other part of the world, in the other part of the world, and we face even more complex problems. So that's what we want to talk about today.

Speaker 1: 7:10

I think that's right, marco. Here today we would like to kind of name some of the issues that may be arising and also give some examples and then provide some solutions.

Speaker 2: 7:22

Sounds great, but is there? I mean, there's so many angles to this Is there a way to sort of put our finger on why a lot of these things are not working? Is there like a high level summary we could give, or is that going to be next to impossible?

Speaker 1: 7:42

That's really a good question and I'm not sure I have the answer for that. I don't think there is a cookie cutter solution, so one thing gets rolled out in one country in one context and that it can be cleanly rolled out into all different cultures and that we can give a solution for that. I think that it needs a little unpacking and we could give a myriad of possible areas for organizations to look and to reflect on and think about and hopefully it's useful. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:16

Let's. Why don't we just dive in? Because, ultimately, examples are always the best way to get going, and I don't know if you have one ready to talk about. Let me pass the ball to you.

Speaker 1: 8:28

I have a list and I know you do too. I think one of the first ones which might be interesting to unpack is in some cultures, there's a lot of importance being put on using the right words, and if you don't use the right words, you are therefore wrong, You're made wrong, You're judged and you're made wrong. Well, we live in Dubai, where, you know, there are over 270 different nationalities. English as a first language is only a first language for a very small minority or a small percentage of the population. That means that we cannot put so much importance on unspoken words. We have to look at other things right when we are communicating across cultures. Very often in one sentence, you might find three different languages, and so we can't afford to make someone wrong for using the wrong word.

Speaker 1: 9:28

I have a great example. Actually, I was reflecting on this topic and went to the pharmacy and I was asking for what I needed, and that was a cultural conversation, because the person in front of me couldn't really understand my accent, so I was trying to enunciate better, and next to us two totally different cultures altogether. The gentleman asks for the product, the product is handed to him and he says. He looks down and he says can you give me a price? So the pharmacist tells him it's 1,700 dirhams and he looks down again. He says can you give me a price? She pulls out her calculator, puts it in a visual tick, tick, tick shows the calculator 1,700 dirhams. He looks down again and he says can you give me a price? So we're all looking at each other and he does something different this time With his hand.

Speaker 1: 10:27

He did like a shrinking or a minimizing gesture and all three of us at the same time understood aha, he's asking for a discount, but it was not spoken to directly. He didn't directly ask for what he wanted and he didn't use words to describe what he wanted. So what we're learning is that in a, in a multicultural environment where english is not the first language, we make an effort to try and understand each other. We look at the entire context, not just words. We listen to tone, we look at facial expression, we look at body language and then from there we really make an effort to try and understand what's being said. What's really being said that may not be verbalized, and that's a little different to placing importance on words.

Speaker 2: 11:16

Yeah, so it almost shifts your relationship with language actually. So the world of DEIB is full of lingo and I sometimes even lose track myself, although I think I'm quite informed on the subject. But then I hear yet another term or yet another classification, or yet another label of sorts, or another unconscious bias label has, or research piece brings to light yet another unconscious bias, and there are already 188 that are documented right now. And when that language gets introduced, people first of all don't understand it, but then also they get lost in it, especially if English is their second, third, fourth, fifth language. So being able to focus not on the words but on the intention is, I think, is what I hear you say, yes, but then also being skillful in picking up the clues that are not spoken. So the full body language.

Speaker 2: 12:19

And when I moved internationally I realized how handicapped I was in picking up those other clues, because I had grown up in an environment where you purely focus on the words and the words are the package. And then I realized in many cultures that's not the case. That's true. The package is the whole human being and paralinguistics is the fancy term, but the up and down and the intensity and the melody of the way it's spoken. Super important and I was never trained to pay attention to those things, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:56

I think there's like a code switching. That's important, right? I learned that I was married across to a different culture as an italian, so we were, in the first year of our marriage, in constant conflict because, as an, as an italian, whenever I felt passionate about something or um, or I felt strongly about something, my volume goes up. But volume isn't an indication necessarily of anger. It's how engaged am I, how enthusiastic do I feel about what I am speaking about? Anger is demonstrated with a whole lot of facial expressions hand gestures, sometimes arm gestures, body, all of this, yeah. But in my husband's culture, raising the voice indicated anger, and we had to. It took us a year to figure out that we were in an intercultural marriage and that this expression of anger was different in our cultures.

Speaker 2: 13:52

Yeah, yeah now you mentioned when we started to explore this podcast. You mentioned that when people don't understand this, they might sometimes have a tendency to say wait a minute, you don't understand my words or you don't understand the classification of a behavior or a dilemma that I just used and therefore you must be wrong. And sometimes people then don't know what to do with that. And sometimes people then don't know what to do with that. Sometimes they might ask more clarifying questions, but sometimes they then project on you you don't understand me or you don't use the right language. Therefore your behavior or the way you use language is wrong, and I'm just wondering if you've come across that.

Speaker 1: 14:42

I have come across that I work with a team that is predominantly one culture, but there are other cultures in the team too, and sometimes that does happen is where a projection so a projection of you know you must be X, y and Z, because X, y and Z and it feels like the person on the receiving end is being made wrong, like there is no space for another truth to exist. It's like a single story narrative that you must understand. It doesn't allow any space for there to be another truth, right? And it feels deeply uncomfortable and and and can create conflict, right? So then you have this conflict where both parties feel wronged and misunderstood and misjudged and they sometimes miss the opportunity to, you know, create a relational bridge, to try and understand each other and as you're explaining that, it it really sounds like you know.

Speaker 2: 15:46

One of the other tools we use in our work is identifying am I a cultural learner or am I a cultural critic, or another way of putting it do I have a cultural learner mindset or do I have a cultural critic mindset?

Speaker 1: 16:00

I love that.

Speaker 2: 16:01

Yeah, talk to me how that is applicable to what you just said.

Speaker 1: 16:03

It's very applicable because a cultural learner mindset is one that is curious, assumes positive intent. There's a grace and a forgiveness there. So if I'm not using the right language, someone isn't getting triggered or finding me wrong because I'm using wrong terminology. There is a curiosity and a curiosity to try and understand so that way we may meet each other. In that, you know, relationship bridge, whereas a cultural critic is more my way is the way or the right way, and and you are wrong, or sometimes the, the reverse right, my way is clearly wrong, yours must be right, you know, and there's a glorifying of that way. So there's almost like a giving up of self, in a way, rather than being open and curious and and being flexible, you know, and having that mentality to to really be curious and understand your point of view, but also not giving up on myself, really, because I'm not wrong for being who I am in all my colors, and neither are you wrong for being all your beautiful colors.

Speaker 2: 17:14

But we can build a relationship where we can both acknowledge each other and meet, be curious and build a relationship from that space the picture that comes to mind is is that the more complexity we create, either through language, through classifications, to unique terminology, the more we almost drop minds in the field and it feels like that sometimes, yeah, and it becomes impossible to really build that relational bridge.

Speaker 1: 17:43

Yeah, yes, also because you know, when you feel like you step on a potential minefield, then the very next thing you want to do is defend yourself, and so then the walls are down, yeah, and you're not really in relationship anymore. So you get this.

Speaker 2: 17:58

You know this almost critical defensive dynamic that pops up that then has the potential to explode and moves away from building the relationship, and you mentioned something that is, I think, also important to highlight is that, as an intercultural learner, somebody who wants to develop intercultural agility, both humility and forgiveness are actually important. I'm curious why you mentioned that.

Speaker 1: 18:32

I was recently in Japan and you can imagine the cultural difference between a feisty, opinionated Italian and a very respectful Japanese, you know.

Speaker 1: 18:48

But both cultures can be respectful.

Speaker 1: 18:50

It just shows itself in very different ways and I was hour one, day one, working with my really valued.

Speaker 1: 19:02

We have deeply respectful relationships between my colleagues and I and I really had to name the fact that there was rank and you know the fact that I might be, you know, very, very vocal and vibrant around the topic, but I really wanted to acknowledge that I deeply respected their voice and their opinion too and I understood that they were giving me more space and I was humbled by that and I wanted to just put on the table that just because I'm feisty or excited when I speak, I didn't want to undermine their voice or make them feel shut down. In fact, I was there to support them and I felt the need to really humble myself for the grace that they were giving me in their context. And when that happened, it was a lesson for me is that when we are, you know, because we are all sometimes unskillful and a bit enthusiastic in cultures and it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't and the importance of being humble, both humble and forgiving is important as a way to understand each other and create a relationship between us.

Speaker 2: 20:15

Yeah, well, that's really helpful. And when it comes to forgiving, I think one of the hardest things to do quickly and genuinely is to forgive yourself when you mess up.

Speaker 1: 20:28

Yes, that's also true. Then I spend the evening alone. You know, like a good Catholic with a oh God, I could have done that better. I should have done that. That in itself is a minefield. Yes, you know, every mistake is a minefield.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Yes, every mistake is a stepping stone into the future. Yes, and the quicker. As we talk about in our intercultural competency framework, humility and being forgiving and forgivable are important, but then also, moving on, just reframe and say, oops, got that wrong, move on and learn from it. Now we both. You mentioned you had a list of examples.

Speaker 2: 21:05

There's a few that come to mind for me as well, and thinking about what you just experienced in Japan, where you were given the respect and there was some hierarchy involved, I remember one of the initiatives that was rolled out by a global client of ours had to do with how they wanted to restructure the way people pursued their career in the organization, and what they did was they had one of their centers of excellence. They said okay, how do we make sure that people take ownership of the way they pursue their career in the organization? So they created a program with a nice jazzy name and they created a flow of conversation. So that was typically around performance appraisals, career advancement conversations in the organization, but at the core of it were some cultural assumptions. So one of those cultural assumptions was everybody in the world wants to have the agency and the freedom to make their own choices.

Speaker 2: 22:18

So in our intercultural framework. We talk about directed versus directive destiny. So they made the assumption that the whole world was directive destiny oriented and a few other things that they assumed was that it was good to, let's say, have a conversation with your boss and say to your boss, I've done some thinking of my own, here is what I want to do with my career, and they assumed that that was a better way to position yourself in terms of your own advancement and they put the label being proactive to that behavior. And then what happened is they exported this to the whole world over 100 countries involved and we started to hear stories of how people struggled with that new initiative and how that version of having career advancement conversations with your boss or with your direct reports wasn't sitting well with people. And we would hear things like yeah, but if I position myself that way with my boss, I'm being disrespectful, I'm shaming my boss. I need to respect and honor her seniority and I need to give her a chance to tell me what she thinks would be the best next step to take. And I would find it very difficult to be the first one to speak. Other things we heard from senior leaders. They said well, that is unheard of in our context, because people who report to us they expect that we are the wise counsel for them and that we tell them.

Speaker 2: 24:09

When I was at your age and at your level in the organization, here is what happened to me and I see some similarity and maybe here is one or two things that you could consider. And that was the normal flow of conversation and now they were all quote unquote forced to change that conversation. Coming from the employee, it has to be from me, and one of the words that was used is that creates agency and agency is, I believe, in agency. The way you deploy it in organizations is sometimes very, very different. The way it's often explained is very what we would call individual accountability oriented, and it's also often more right-wrong innocence-guilt oriented in the way that people position it. Long innocence guilt oriented in the way that people position it. So that was a classic example where a global rollout of in and of itself great intentions to elevate everybody's career advancement in the organization, with clarity and clear steps to take and something exciting to look forward to.

Speaker 1: 25:16

At the same time, all kinds of local modifications had to be made to make it work for the whole organization I can imagine, because it didn't take into consideration a very hierarchical culture, for example, where I don't speak directly to my boss. I wait for my boss to speak to me and to tell me what to do. And removing that hierarchy doesn't mean that I know how to speak directly, or even that I may want to, because I may embarrass myself or I might embarrass my boss at the same time. So I can imagine how that must have been challenging yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:52

So what? What had to happen really was to start finding how much breathing space there was in the in the approach and in the how-to, and we realized very quickly that there was enough opportunity to tweak things. So the positive outcome eventually was that people started to understand the way hierarchy is handled, the way you create honorable relationships across those hierarchies, the way the boss empowers the employee, the way the employee empowers the boss to speak into their career advancement. We discovered that that created an opportunity to educate people and say, yeah, here is how you are different and here is the edict that has come down is not necessarily exactly how you would operate. Unfortunately, there was enough space to start.

Speaker 2: 26:45

You know tweaking things in a local context. So two things happened. On the one hand, the tweaking did happen and sometimes, you know, the headquarters wasn't even aware or wasn't culturally astute enough to realize that the end product or the end result started happening. But the way that end result was achieved was sometimes very different to what was prescribed, so to speak, and as a result, people started to have more fine-tuned intercultural conversations with one another. It's like why wouldn't we do it that way and how is that uncomfortable for us and how do we create a healthy culture around that type of a conversation around performance and career advancement and more tailored learning and development solutions?

Speaker 1: 27:34

I love that they learned from that experience and they had those conversations and I wonder how much time and energy and money would have been saved if those conversations had been upfront, if the assumptions had not been made the original assumptions. And what would have happened if they came up with a great initiative and then rolled it out to the countries and said to the countries, how would you roll this out in your organization, how would this work in your culture, how much more appropriate those products would be in those organizations.

Speaker 2: 28:08

You know I totally agree with you. At the same time, that can be pretty scary if you're looking at that from a headquarters point of view, because that requires both courage and the faith in your, in the local teams, to come up with those solutions right.

Speaker 1: 28:24

You have to trust that local teams have the solutions that work for them and that you may not have all the answers, so it's almost like putting the solution in their hand and letting it flourish in that, in that space. Absolutely, and yes, it can be scary and also thrilling.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah, absolutely can you think of another example?

Speaker 1: 28:45

so many. Marco, I was thinking about an assessment tool that I once worked with and I remember going to the training for it, so we were being educated on the tool and we were then going to use the tool. I live here in the part of the world that I do, so my lens is always looking at anything that I'm working with through the lens of intercultural agility, and I remember it was a leadership development tool and we were walking the map on the floor. It was a blown up version. They had placed it on the ground and we were exploring the different, you know, leadership dimensions that were considered valuable and the ones that were a little more tricky. And one of the dimensions that was more valuable or, yes, valuable was the dimension of being transparent as a leader, and I reflected upon that and later on, when working with it, realized that that didn't work, because whilst transparency is valued in certain cultures, it's not valued in other cultures.

Speaker 1: 29:53

So, again, there was the assumption that transparency is a behavior that's valued across cultures. Well, and of course it's not, because in other cultures it may be more important to be honorable and to be respectful. You know of who I have in front of me Many cultures, and you know across the leaders that I work with. Many leaders would say to me I don't want to be transparent with that person. You know, I would rather not hurt him or her and not cause them to be embarrassed. I would rather not be direct with the language that is needed to be transparent. And so we had to figure out a different way of working with a tool to make it more applicable in that context.

Speaker 2: 30:39

Working with a tool to make it more applicable in that context and linked to that, I think, is also that transparency is something that has grades to it, so there might be a like this is me and that then definitely doesn't translate well to other cultures. But how have you seen sort of different grades or nuances of that across cultures?

Speaker 1: 31:06

Absolutely so. In a hierarchical organization, for example, there might be transparency at the highest levels, or more transparency at the highest levels, and as we come down the organization there is less and less transparency.

Speaker 1: 31:20

So, for example, setting budgets or KPIs when you don't have the full picture, highest levels and as we come down the organization, there is less and less transparency. So, for example, setting budgets or KPIs when you don't have the full picture can get quite tricky, you know, because you don't have the full picture. Setting a strategy when you don't have the full picture can also be tricky, and some people have the full picture, but very, very few, usually the people who are closer to the boss and the trusted advisors perhaps, and maybe not much further than that, and so it's almost like navigating in the dark and you find ways around that because it's not seen as important.

Speaker 2: 32:00

Yeah, the other thing I've seen on that subject is that very often it's linked to how the leader is perceived by the organization. So admitting weakness, for instance, is a huge challenge interculturally, especially if that, if the perception is that it diminishes my position of power, or if it diminishes my, the perception people have of me in terms of am I the right person for the job? Was I the right choice? Am I I knowledgeable enough and learning to find where people are at and how much stretch there is in the system? And sometimes a tiny little bit of vulnerability can just do. It can shift things dramatically, but not on my terms, but on their terms.

Speaker 1: 32:59

That's beautiful. I see that often and that statement is, if I'm vulnerable, I'll be seen as weak often comes up. So I coach the leadership teams across organizations and for me, vulnerability is such a gift because it's the quickest way to connect with someone, and sometimes it's perceived as a weakness. Yeah, so how do we create connection in a in a world where vulnerability is viewed differently, you know, by different cultures? Vulnerability is there, but it's not always named as that you know um, an apology may not be a direct, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 33:39

Apology, yeah, but it could be a tap on the shoulder or it could be an offer for a coffee, you know.

Speaker 2: 33:45

Or a favor.

Speaker 1: 33:45

Or a favor yes, and so vulnerability is there. You just have to be savvy and recognizing it when it happens.

Speaker 2: 33:53

Yeah, Especially if it's more in an indirect manner, right, not explicit, right? Yeah, yeah, you mentioned assessment, so I can think of the fact that, that the assessment makers assumed that everybody, every leader in the world, needs to have a certain score on vulnerability. That automatically raises another challenge. Is that how in the world do you create tools like that that are truly universally applicable? So, yeah, that's a big issue. We come across this all the time. Yeah, I'm thinking of um, the. The first time I came across this was with a big employee engagement survey with one of our clients, and the survey was designed from a right, wrong, innocence, guilt perspective. So the assumption there is that the the person who fills in this or completes the assessment, will have a natural desire to volunteer the right answer. Another assumption that we saw in the survey was that they were assuming that people would give the answers from an individual accountability point of view. So, in other words, it's my opinion, it's my perspective on the situation and I take ownership for my opinion.

Speaker 1: 35:14

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 35:15

So this was rolled out across many countries and I was in contact with the HR team and the head of HR at one point said oh, it's going really well with the survey and we have about 3,000 responses back so far. What do you think? Should we close the survey? I said, do one thing for me. Can you check, just a sense check of the people that completed it? Where do you think they culturally come from? Lo and behold, the first people who filled in the survey were the people who are individual, accountability and innocence, guilt, oriented on the three colors of worldview. If they would have closed that survey right there and then they would have had by and large 3,000 responses from the organization, from the people who are all innocence, guilt and all-oriented and individual accountability.

Speaker 1: 36:12

And you can see that that would have skewed the results and not given you a full and accurate picture.

Speaker 2: 36:18

Yeah, and they had to go back and they had to say wait a minute.

Speaker 2: 36:22

why is that? Well, it's because of the way we designed it. It's harder for honor, shame and power fear oriented people to actually be excited about the survey and oh, I'll do that immediately. But also it was very much harder for them to answer the questions because they were designed assuming that everybody who does it will want to volunteer the right answer and the answer is my answer, not my team's answer, not the answer that reflect the opinion of my boss, et cetera, et cetera. So we've seen this time and time again with designs of engagement surveys, employee opinion surveys, etc.

Speaker 2: 37:01

I was with a client last week and the client said, yeah, explain to me, why do we have such really high engagement results in this country I won't mention the country name and very low engagement surveys in this other country? So I sort of reflected on that using our intercultural framework. She said, ah, now I get it. So the country that had super high engagement, the way the questions were designed didn't give the person completing it a choice. They had to give honorable answers and, as a result, they had an average over the years, an average of 90% scores on their employee engagement survey.

Speaker 2: 37:51

And in other countries it opened the door to get your guns out, because that's how the questions were triggering the people that were completing the questions. So they call that social desirability. Slipping into these surveys and assessments and designing them so that that doesn't happen is actually not easy. But using tools like the Three Colors of Worldview and the Cultural Mapping Inventory, you can at least design the questions better and or support the harvesting of your data with other mechanisms. Not just an electronic survey but other methods. But the designing of how the questions are phrased, how you give people options or open text to engage with the question, that can make a huge difference in truly understanding what's going on in your organization.

Speaker 1: 38:52

Yeah, I love that you point in that direction. Mark been rolled out, or a 360, and people have taken the opportunity. Well, either the the data was so skewed because some people responded from my voice, other people responded no, with the team or the leadership team above, or it was so confused they were not comparing apples to apples and um. Or, for example, 360s were used and people used that as an opportunity to pull out all guns blazing, because I don't normally have the opportunity to speak up or speak the truth, and so I've been asked to go in and kind of untangle that web. So it's really important. I love that you're pointing in the direction that you're going.

Speaker 2: 39:38

Any other ideas or stories that you can think of?

Speaker 1: 39:43

One of the areas that I've been reflecting on. You know I work across cultures and various organizations. I've been reflecting on an agenda that's important something like this and very present in one culture, then becomes the diversity piece that must be rolled out across the globe, across different cultures, and then being faced with contempt of a sort, you know, eye rolling and minimizing and making fun of, and I had to sit with that for a long time. I couldn't figure that piece out. And then I realized well, what's important in one culture, it doesn't mean it's not important in other cultures. They may just have another context in that moment that's more important. An example of that is, you know, gender diversity being an issue in one culture and being very present, and so they're really working deeply to create inclusion and belonging around that topic. That then being rolled out and being across the globe and all other countries being told. You know, you have to roll out these gender diversity issues and then wondering why it's not taking traction and it's being marginalized as a topic. Now, it doesn't mean that it's not important in those other countries, but perhaps you're rolling it out in a culture where, in that moment, they have, you know, intertribal violence, for example, or something like that. So for me, then I sat with that and I know that we've had a conversation around that. So what's important there in that case?

Speaker 1: 41:37

Because you know, gender diversity or even racism, for example, racism being on the agenda and very important for one in one country, then it's rolled out in other cultures, and it's not that it's less important in other cultures, but it might be that in my country I'm having war, you know, and so racism becomes less important. So how do we make it important? And I love when we were having the conversation that we were talking about. Well, perhaps if we get to the issue behind the issue, then it becomes important for me too.

Speaker 1: 42:18

So if a topic is important in your culture and we look at let's take racism, for example so what's the issue behind the issue? And it could be the fact that one people is imposing their will or being dominant over another people right Well across the globe. I can identify with that. I might not call it racism, but I am being imposed on in my context because maybe a different caste is imposing itself on me or a different tribe is imposing itself on me. So this concept of what's the issue behind the issue for me has become very important to address.

Speaker 2: 42:59

I think that also makes it possible to come up with initiatives that can span the globe. Yes, but it's not, you know, the localized manifestation of that.

Speaker 2: 43:11

Yes, you use the word racism of caste difference, tribal difference, religious difference, whatever it might be that causes some people to be elevated and some people to be put down Right, and that can be, you know, in general, in public, but it can also be institutionalized Right. It can be through politics, through religion, through legislation, et cetera, et cetera. So, learning how to take an issue that's really, really close to my heart, and I feel it and I've experienced the pain of it and the struggle of it, when I say, how do I take learning from that to other parts of the world, I have to find something similar that is equally important, but to your point earlier on, it might be that the timing is not right. Right, there might be other, much more pressing issues that are currently important for my colleagues in that part of the world, and then I have to have the intercultural agility and the respect to say, okay, we'll allow you to deal with the issues that are currently important for you and then we'll come back to those other things.

Speaker 1: 44:27

Right, yeah, I think what's important in these you know we talked about this activism. I've become an activist and activism is needed, right, because it pushes forward and it teaches us and it really stretches us but the ability to know how to switch from being an activist to holding multiple stories as being true, right To being able to sit in conversation and not assume that my story is the only story and that my story is right story is the only story and that my story is right. So how do I switch from the moment where I can be fierce and and speak to my story or my agenda and then to be able to sit in conversation and not make you wrong because you have a different story? Yeah, and and being in dialogue, holding multiple stories as the truth, yeah, you know, as being true.

Speaker 2: 45:22

And especially you know, when activism has become part of a career, let's say and I've met so many people who have incredible stories to tell, where often coming from a place of pain or that they've personally experienced, or in the world around them, and say I want to do something about that, and then they step into volunteering in that direction. Eventually it might become a job, a career that they pursue. At the same time, it's incredibly hard to hold a multiplicity of stories amongst your fellow activists, and I've heard people say, as soon as I try to open up a conversation, to really understand the other side, no matter how contentious that might be, to really be a cultural learner, not to compromise or to switch over, but to really deeply understand why the other party thinks the way they think. And I've often seen that in the world of activism you get flagged immediately if you try to do that. There is no room for a multiplicity of stories, there is no room for being a cultural learner about this subject. You have to fight, and I've seen this with some of our initiatives.

Speaker 2: 46:45

You mentioned gender equality, where the organization we were working with they had heard about a program that was rolled out by a Silicon Valley company related to gender equality and it looked all fantastic and really lots of publicity around it.

Speaker 2: 47:02

And one of our female facilitators then looked at it and she said I don't think I can verbatim bring this material into this particular context.

Speaker 2: 47:16

And fortunately she flagged it early and she said let's look at this from an intercultural agility point of view and see what we might need to do to really give the organization the best way to stretch the boundaries While at the same time being very respectful of where they are today and how far could we potentially move them when it comes to gender equality in their context. And it was just beautiful to see how we were able to take again a beautiful program with great intentions. But it was designed for a time and place where people were at a certain point in their own journey within a certain cultural context and then trying to bring that to another part of the world. And if we would have done that just copy-paste it would have been a big disaster. She did a fantastic job and it was just such a thrilling time for the people who were part of that program because it respected where they were. It respected some of the limitations they were facing, but it also gave them the courage and boldness to work out together how they could move those boundaries.

Speaker 1: 48:33

Right, right. So it sounds like a very respectful approach, respecting both the agenda as well as the cultural context that they found themselves yeah yeah because the flip side is also true.

Speaker 2: 48:47

If you don't do it that way and say, here's the program, we need to roll this out, you know. And then when you do it, you actually create so much pushback that in the mid to long term you're actually further away from home than you want to be.

Speaker 1: 49:02

Yeah, I see that, and I see that being played out on the political stage too. Right, there is so much activism, there is really not much space to listen, to try to understand, and there is also sometimes a belief. Like you said, if I am listening to you and being curious and trying to explore your point of view, I am made wrong almost for giving up on our agenda, and it should not be like that. In a savvy world, it would be that we have the ability to remain in dialogue and discourse and be curious about each other have the ability to remain in dialogue and discourse and be curious about each other.

Speaker 2: 49:53

There's two authors and facilitators who I really respect William Ury he just released this book.

Speaker 2: 49:56

Possible has a work in the global scene. You mentioned politics. I've just bought that book and I just have the greatest respect for people who can actually work together with people that they might totally disagree with, but they step into that space to build bridges, to bring people together. Another gentleman who does that really well is Adam Kahane. He wrote the book Collaborating with the Enemy, working together with people I don't agree with, I don't trust and I don't like, and it's being able to step into that space. It's hard, but you can only do that as a cultural learner, with the desire to be as interculturally agile as I can possibly be.

Speaker 1: 50:38

You know, in OSC, which is the model of team coaching that I use, we have this little metaphor. It's where we say that it's a dance. It's a dance between being open to influence so I allow myself to be in discourse and dialogue with you and I'm open to influence but I don't give up on myself. And there's a dance between that because I'm not so rigid and stuck in my single story and believe that my way is right. But there is the intention to create a flow between us and I don't have to make myself wrong for being who I am. I can own who I am. I can own my story, but I can also curious and and find you right in your land. And if we're doing that for each other, it creates a beautiful dance of relationship between us yeah, yeah imagine that playing out in politics.

Speaker 2: 51:34

How beautiful that would be amazing yes, without deeply hidden agendas no yeah, wow, I think the think the other thing that keeps coming back to me is that doing the hard work to find what is important right now in this context and then designing ways to bring people together to create culture together, to bring people together to create culture together. And of course, I might be a little bit biased, because intercultural agility is very close to my heart, but I find that often people lead with a problem and they don't understand the why of the why behind that problem from a local perspective. So we talked about a few already. It could be gender-related issues, could be localized versions of racism, caste me being bigger better than you, etc. It could be issues related to how people view disadvantage, historical issues related to minorities, sexual orientation, etc. And what people then do is they make the issue the focus first, and that's where a lot of the stories come from, where this didn't work or this backfired on us in the local context, or the local team or the local board flagged this down and they don't want us to spend any budget or time on this subject.

Speaker 2: 53:10

What I find is that almost the key to start unlocking it is actually first building intercultural agility, because every one of the diversity challenges, there is always a cultural angle to it. You can't escape walking into a country and when you start asking, for instance, about how people view gender, there's a local story. You go to another country and you start asking about sexual orientation there is a local story. There's always a local story. And, yes, it's not just culture. There are other influences that have an impact on it. But I've seen so often, if people discover the fun and the power of intercultural agility, they get tooled up with some of those tools that you know, build the cultural learner mindset that teach people how to hold a multiplicity of stories, teach people to have better conversations with one another.

Speaker 2: 54:06

And then you revisit some of those problem topics. All of a sudden it becomes possible to even have those conversations, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 54:16

I think you know all of the teams that both you and I work with. They're all multicultural, right, and we see that very often. Please come and work with my team so we can fix that problem, and so I think the pieces of work is flipping that right and upskilling them, as you say, and also helping them build their relationship first. So how do we build our relationship so that it's strong enough to be able to hold those conversations? How do we create enough understanding about me and you and the different cultures we come from, and how do we create a space where we both can feel seen and understood and included and safe so that we may then talk about that topic? Yeah, so that's the, that's the work that we may then talk about that topic. So that's the work that we do, right, that's the work that we ask teams to focus on.

Speaker 2: 55:08

I'm thinking of an example where I was asked by a senior leadership team because that was from a global edict. They were told you need to do unconscious bias training. And I was asked to come in and work with that senior leadership team and I knew that that was just gonna be a compliance exercise and so I got to know a little bit more about the team and I realized that there were certain issues that I knew, certain tools that we use, especially in our perception management.

Speaker 2: 55:43

Using tools like the Three Colors of Worldview would, on the one hand, in and of themselves be helpful for that team. On the other hand, it would be an indirect way for them to become more aware of their unconscious biases. So I literally took the liberty to talk for one slide about unconscious bias and say you know, they are real. There are 188, plus now. I don't know them all by heart. They are real. Sometimes they are neutral and even helpful when you think about what food to eat, which clothes to wear, which route to take on the road to work. Other unconscious biases are not helpful at all. They're destructive. They create pain and division. The question is can I start to recognize when that negative trigger happened or when that's not the case? So we started looking at a number of conversational tools. We used the three colors of worldview to help them understand that people see things in different ways. They are motivated and driven by either the right thing, the honorable thing, the thing that gives power position, and by taking that route at the end they started.

Speaker 2: 57:02

It's almost like their eyes were open yeah they started to see and hear and listen and ask questions and it it increased their, their presence in the room increased their mindfulness and they started to say, oh, if I say it that way, that would be disrespectful, right? Oh yeah, I have to remember this place is very different from where I was previously employed. I can't just assume that everything's going to be the same. Or I was very successful in this other place. Now I'm in a different context with totally different cultures. I can't just assume that I can copy and paste the method I used in my previous employment into this context and that it will work. So it was an indirect approach, but they started to actually tackle their unconscious biases, especially when they were unhelpful, automatically as a result of tooling them up.

Speaker 1: 57:58

Very precious, very precious and, I think, so important, particularly because we know that with globalization, people are traveling, people expect international placements. We are constantly moving across boundaries and across cultures, and so it becomes more and more important to navigate in different waters and be comfortable navigating in different waters. I think some of the children that are third cultural kids get that, get raised in a in a different country to where they were born, or even where their parents may have been born. They, they go to school with children of different cultures and they grow up. You know, it's almost like the water that they swim in. They are so interculturally savvy. It's mind-blowing and so interesting to observe. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 58:51

I was listening to my son. He was asked to give some examples of what it's like to grow up interculturally and he says I can't think of any examples.

Speaker 1: 59:04

he's so steeped in it.

Speaker 2: 59:05

It's like well, what about this? Uh, I gave him an example. I gave him another example and he looked at the and he said, yeah, but that's normal. So, yes, for you, for you it's normal, but for other people that's profound, yeah, so TCKs can sometimes be so into it that it's totally the water they swim in, right, right, yeah, yeah. Well, I think we've given some really practical examples.

Speaker 1: 59:38

I think we have a few more on our list.

Speaker 2: 59:40

At the same time, I really appreciate that we can actually talk about these things, although we're naturally cautious as intercultural practitioners. We don't like to put our finger on things, especially if it becomes contentious. But I think it's important to have this conversation today. If it resonates with you as an audience, you say, oh yeah, I've experienced that. Please reach out to Linda and myself, and I hope we can have a conversation beyond this podcast as well.

Speaker 1: 1:00:14

I love. Where you are pointing towards is courage, courage to have these conversations, and that's another quality that's necessary, right, as well as being a cultural learner. It takes guts to sit in the fire and say hold on, that's different. Share that with me. You know, let me suspend my story for a moment, or let me be humble and curious, and you know it's brave. And so that's the invitation for everybody listening is to be brave, to step into courage and to have these conversations, or to say you know what? I don't know enough about this, let me go and find out more and educate myself.

Speaker 2: 1:00:56

I think that's a beautiful way to finish today. Thank you, linda, I really enjoyed this.

Speaker 1: 1:01:01

Thank you, Marco.

Speaker 2: 1:01:17

I always enjoy our conversations on your favorite podcast app or channel, or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. As always, if any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you, you will find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about intercultural intelligence and how you can become more culturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworkscom. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole Knowledgeworks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, nita Rodriguez, ara Azizbakian, rajitha Raj, and thanks to Vip and George for audio production, rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast.