Speaker 1: 0:00

The analogy that I love using is that of a puzzle. Right, we would never expect a puzzle for all the pieces to be the same. It wouldn't create a picture. So if we can accept that puzzle pieces, we want them to all look different. Right, but all are needed by the puzzle to create the beautiful picture that the puzzle creates. And it's the same with diversity. Each one of us is. The team is richer for the diversity that we each bring to the table.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenberg, International Director of KnowledgeWorks, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. Welcome again to another episode of Unlocking Cultural Agility, and I'm so happy that Linda Berlotte is back with us again. Actually, the very, very first podcast we recorded was us together.

Speaker 1: 1:24

That's right, that's how we started.

Speaker 2: 1:27

So thank you for making the time, and it's always great to hear all the things that you're involved with, but also I always have loved sharing our perspectives. We have come a long way together, but for our listeners it would be really good if you can just do a brief introduction who is Linda Berlotte? And we'll dive straight into the subject. For today, Absolutely, marco.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Thank you for inviting me back onto your podcast. We had so much fun last time talking about both relationships teams as well as intercultural agility. Both of these topics are close to our heart, I know, so I'm thrilled to be here with you again.

Speaker 2: 2:04

So tell me a little bit more about Linda.

Speaker 1: 2:08

How long do you have? So I am Italian. I have been living here in the Middle East, in Dubai specifically, for the last 20 years. I came here for two.

Speaker 2: 2:22

Heard that before Right.

Speaker 1: 2:24

It's now my home. I am passionate about many, many things food, music, dancing but, more importantly, I love what we do. I am absolutely passionate about working with teams and, more specifically, multicultural teams, to help bring more connection and more peace to these teams, despite the diversity that lives between them. Now, we all know diversity is a gift and very often in a multicultural team, this can create a lot of challenges, and I love working with these teams to help them find a different way forward.

Speaker 2: 3:01

You said you're based in Dubai, but you don't just work in Dubai. Tell us a little bit more. Where does your work take you?

Speaker 1: 3:09

That's right. My work takes me across the globe, really, from Mexico to Thailand and everything in between. Wow.

Speaker 2: 3:17

Wow, it's an exciting but sometimes maybe also challenging span of countries, span of time zones. Now you already mentioned intercultural agility. We've had the privilege of applying that in our own unique ways, sometimes working together on projects. But how is intercultural agility making a difference, maybe even for you as a person to start with, but also how does it make a difference in the work that you do?

Speaker 1: 3:47

Marco, for me, cultural issues in groups have always lit up like string in front of me. I've always been able to see that when there is misunderstanding or people are not hearing each other or sometimes miscommunication, that partly could be who they are and also partly could be cultural. So whenever I am traveling I see these cultural differences between me and whoever I am surrounded by. That happened to me from a very young age, I guess, because we traveled extensively as a family and I've lived in so many different countries that I was always able to see that diversity piece and get very curious around that. But so almost it's become second nature for me personally to become interculturally agile. But I see how important it is in the world that we live in, right, where we're a globalized world, most teams now are multicultural and so it's become vitally important for team members to really learn to move away from me and you to understanding and being curious about that which is most different, which could be a different culture, a different personality or anything else really.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, today we were hoping to talk a little bit more about some contentious issues. Potentially, there's a lot of thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. A lot of the original thinking initially came out of more the Western countries and there's been some hiccups around that, so we're going to take permission from our audience today to give maybe a more global perspective on that. We both are in the trenches pretty much every week in working with teams, working with leaders, working with organizations on organizational culture, etc. So let's get into it.

Speaker 2: 5:45

When we listen to you know, this year is a crazy year when it comes to elections. Actually, I just learned that this is the year where more people on the planet vote for a new leader than any time in history before. So, unfortunately, what has happened with the world of diversity? In many countries? Actually, it's become part of the political agenda and, I must say, in some countries it's actually unfortunate almost because it politicizes it. It sometimes even weaponizes it.

Speaker 2: 6:20

What you do with diversity and how you think about it, While people like yourself and others, they just want to come alongside teams, come alongside leaders and navigate diversity, tool them up, help them. So how do we move forward? Are we facing a situation where the core is not the core anymore. People start to lose track of why it was invented in the first place or why it was emphasized in the first place. So how do we deal with this? People try to politicize it. People try to say, no, this is my agenda. And then, in the midst of that, your heart is really to bring people together to help people be effective together so how do we stay focused on the core with all this noise?

Speaker 2: 7:09

Daniel Kahneman would call this lots of noise in the system. We try to stay focused. How do we do that?

Speaker 1: 7:16

For me, and I'm sure that you and we all have different opinions around this right. That's why it's so contentious, I guess. But for me it's important to remember that we are all diverse and that diversity plays itself out in not just personality or gender or the big pieces, but culture is one of those, and no one culture should drive the agenda for anyone else, because there are things that are important for me which may not necessarily be important for you, or there may be overriding important factors that are more important for you, right? So, for example, race might be important for me, but you are striving to stay alive in a war-torn country, so that's going to be primary for you. It would not be right for me to pose my agenda on your culture and in your situation, because it's just not relevant and also, I believe, not quite respectful. I think respect is something, not just the obvious things of saying good morning and good evening and being polite. Respect is truly accepting the nuances of diversity and not pushing those to serve my agenda.

Speaker 2: 8:31

Yeah, I think that's well said being able to maybe be a little bit more open-handed as opposed to you know, here's my agenda, my prescription. Yeah. And what I hear you say really is what we talk about being having more of a cultural learner mindset. Yeah, as opposed to bringing a prescription or bringing a method to navigate things.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Well, one of the things that we've seen in coming up with solutions to navigate diversity, to create healthy cultures together. One of the dilemmas I've seen is that, you know, every method is always designed through the lens of the method creator, right? So culturally around the world, some cultures are very relationship centric in the way they look at things and other cultures are much more problem-centric, and very often problem-centric cultures tend to have more direct communication and relationship-centric cultures have a little bit more indirect communication. But I've seen this play out in so many methods and approaches to navigating diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. So talk to me about the difference. So you have problem-centric ways of looking at things to figure out what's at the center, agree on it and then magically make it go away, or a more relationship-centric approach, which is a different. Some people say I don't have time for that, it takes too long or it's too fluffy, not tangible enough. So talk to me about the difference and how you've seen it play out, the choices you've made in your work.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Thank you for raising that, because I see it being played out obviously in the multicultural teams we work with, but also out in the world and also in the teams I belong to, right, where we've got problem-centered cultures which are very for them.

Speaker 1: 10:31

It's very important to put the problem in the center, to talk about it, to very clearly define what the problem is and, like you said, they have a very direct communication approach and the person with more verbal, more words, more sophisticated language usually pulls rank on identifying what the problem is. On the other side, we have a relationship-centered approach where it's more important for us to rebuild our relationship after there's been a problem and to focus on rebuilding trust and respect and helping each other feel honored. In a way, relationship-centered cultures may never go back to talk about the problem because they're building their relationships, so they've built their relationship past the issue that there may no longer be a need to go back and talk about the problem. Or, if they've built a lot of trust and safety, they might at a later stage, you know, re-look at it and talk about it in a very different way. So you can see how those two different approaches would clash right.

Speaker 2: 11:37

Absolutely yes, that's what I'm trying to reflect on. Okay, how does that if you have people who are saying no, no, no, no. We need to get to the bottom of this. You know what's the issue. Let's talk about what's the issue. And then another person gets hesitant or scared or nervous and say, well, wait a minute. I thought it was about you and me.

Speaker 2: 12:15

So yeah, just this last week I was talking to somebody I'm coaching right now and she's very much from a relationship-oriented culture, very community, accountability-oriented, quite a bit of honor, shame, and she's in an organization that is very right and wrong, innocence, guilt, very policy driven, and something happened that triggered the policy and one of the things she said in the conversation. She said I thought we created a space where my story could be heard and she said the policy didn't allow me for my story to be heard. And now that I'm listening to you, I thought that's a classic example of problem-centric the policy kicks in, certain rules apply and she was saying no, I want my story to be heard, I want to have a chance to have a conversation with people, because relationships are important for me.

Speaker 1: 12:58

Absolutely, and what you find is the more problem-centric for them. It's very important that we do things right, that we follow the right path and we do things right For relationship-centric cultures. It's important that we honor each other, respect each other, that we don't embarrass each other or anything like that. I see that played out in teams all the time, right when people well, let's say, a policy kicks in and you can't get it feels stuck. If you pick up the phone or get up and walk to the office and, you know, have a chat and a conversation with the person, all of a sudden, magically, you get everything resolved because we've stepped into relationship, we've made each other feel seen and understood and and, and then their issue doesn't exist anymore and, despite there being a policy, all of a sudden we can create the solution together yeah, yeah, so that that idea of being willing and allowed to have a conversation.

Speaker 2: 14:01

It brings a new perspective. I think I mentioned this before on the podcast, but in Dutch we have a saying unknown makes unloved. So if I'm not allowed to talk to you and there is a challenge between us, I start to create my own perspective of you and it gets reinforced by people who support me and, on the other side of the equation, gets reinforced by the people who support the other party, and then it just widens the gap?

Speaker 1: 14:29

Absolutely, we make so much. It's fascinating how we do that as humans, and there are reasons, obviously, why we learn to do that. But we would make an assumption and have a perception about what's happening and then, of course, if I'm looking at it through that lens, everything that I see or do confirms my original belief, but I don't go out and check if that belief is indeed true or if it's just the story I'm making up. And then what ends up happening is I treat you as if my belief is correct.

Speaker 2: 15:01

You just briefly mentioned, you know, know, seeing two people having a chance to chat, having a chance to hear each other's story, and then you said, magically, the problem goes away. But what actually happens if you take a more relationship centric approach because I know in your work that's what you do um, how does how does that shift? Even if on a multicultural team you have lots of diversity in the room, some people say no, no, no, we first need to talk about the problem. If they allow you to take them into the relational route or the relational space, how is that different?

Speaker 1: 15:36

Yeah, To be honest, all of the work that we do focuses on the relationship or, in a corporate setting, the team dynamics between people. So we're constantly coaching the team members to shift the focus away from me and you to the we and looking at where are the places that we can align. So, if a policy is creating stuckness, what can we both align around? What do we both want to achieve? And so we're not making anybody wrong. It's not me above you or you above me, or my way versus your way. We're really looking for a way that is good for the relationship, that is inclusive of both of our cultures or both of our beliefs, and I feel that because of this approach, we create very close, connected relationships, and when team members feel more closely connected, when there is more positivity, it makes them more resilient in times of conflict or in times of change. So all of our approaches are relationship-centric.

Speaker 2: 16:39

And you haven't mentioned it, but you are very passionate about one team coaching methodology I am let's say a little bit more about that it's the osc, team coaching or coach coaching methodology.

Speaker 1: 16:52

It's a systemic coaching methodology. Osc stands for organization and relationship systems coaching and yes, I'm passionate about it because not only is it the model that we use in our coaching, but I'm also the local partner here in the gcc. So we we run a school to teach people to be systemic coaches such as ourselves, right right gcc the gulf countries the gulf countries correct?

Speaker 2: 17:19

yeah, so you mentioned intercultural agility is close to your heart. It's been part of your life journey. You now mentioned ORSC, relational organizational coaching methodology. How do the two blend together?

Speaker 1: 17:36

My belief is that relationship supersedes everything. Right, and if we focus on the relationship, we can talk about the differences between us, because the focus is the relationship. We can talk about the diversity pieces without making either one of us wrong, without making creating embarrassment or shame for anybody. We can look at the team as a whole or the system as a whole and look at all the various pieces that are different, and we wouldn't want it to be any other way. The analogy that I love using is that of a puzzle. Right, we would never expect a puzzle for all the pieces to be the same. It wouldn't create a picture.

Speaker 2: 18:19

Yeah, and it would be a nightmare to put together.

Speaker 1: 18:21

Imagine that all red, all blue. So if we can accept that puzzle pieces, we want them to all look different, right? If we use that as a metaphor and we imagine that each one of us is a piece of the puzzle, each one of us has an individual identity. So the puzzle pieces mine, I am responsible for it, I come in a particular way, but all are needed by the puzzle to create the beautiful picture that the puzzle creates. And it's the same with diversity. Each one of us is the team is richer for the diversity that we each bring to the table, richer for the diversity that we each bring to the table. And it's up to us to learn skills and tools to talk about the diversity, in an effort to educate each other about what's important for me and what's important for you, so that then we can design, you know, we-centered cultures or we-centered team dynamics.

Speaker 2: 19:19

I remember you once talked about the fact that in team coaching you often have two facilitators. So how does even already having two facilitators, which could be diverse in and of itself, how does that impact the way you facilitate team journeys, team sessions?

Speaker 1: 19:39

I love that you point towards that, and I remember when I first started to do this work and we deliver this work in so many different countries around the world my first lens was, oh, I'm going to another country, I'm going to be coaching a group from a different culture, and that was where my focus was, until there started to be challenges and conflict, maybe between me and my colleagues. And then I looked to where my colleague was sitting and I thought, oh, there's cultural differences here between us too. So it's always present, marco, it's always present, right. And so what we learned is that we call the third cultural space, which is not my space or your space, but it's the space we designed together. We call that the third entity. It's like the we that delivers the course, and we found that if we accept that it's the we that's delivering the course, then how do you and I want to show up in service of that we, so that the we may deliver the most powerful course possible and role model, the way for the participants that we are educating?

Speaker 2: 20:51

Yeah, and I always find that people are really carefully observing you as a facilitator, especially if there's two of you in front of the room. So if you don't quote, unquote, practice what you preach, then Absolutely yeah, and people are smart. Oh yes.

Speaker 1: 21:10

People are smart and they see everything and so if there is a little bit of a challenge, they will feel it and sense it. I think the magic of the co-delivery is really carefully designing and redesigning and continuously raising issues of diversity that emerge so that we may realign. So there's that word again alignment. It's not agreement. It's very different to agreement. It's truly finding the place where we can align and move forward from yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:45

Now, we both have done a lot of reading on different methods and different ways of doing things. Um, and we were part of networks, so you're part of the knowledge works global network with people in 55 countries. You're part of the orsk network, which is growing. It's spanning the globe. Now, one thing that that I I'm always amazed by is that some people think that you can design a solution in one country and then, uh, you know, franchise it out or ship it out. You know it's global announcements and from now on, we're going to do things this way.

Speaker 2: 22:20

And I came across a really cute article profound article, but the title is very cute.

Speaker 2: 22:26

He calls it the elephant on the plane, and he had a really nice Photoshop picture where he was trying to stuff an elephant on the plane to fly to another country, and the symbolism behind it was you know, we have all these methods that we design in one place.

Speaker 2: 22:40

It was you know, we have all these methods that we design in one place, and either because we are an authoritative voice or because we have the power in the organization, because we're either a center of excellence or we're part of the global HR team or the global diversity team at the headquarters of the firm or the organization. And then we see these methods drift into faraway places and then people scratch their heads and say, what do we do with this? Um, how do we, how do we approach that? How do you and I both have seen those methods drift into different places, sort of the elephant on the plane, uh, drama, what have you seen? And how do we start to become more interculturally intelligent about all of this? Because we need to see solutions. But stuffing the elephant on the plane and then taking it to faraway places is not necessarily the way to go.

Speaker 1: 23:38

I can't tell you how many HR teams I have worked with across organizations that complain about this. Right, they say you know, but head office is sending us this policy, this is how we have to execute it, and then it doesn't work. Right, the elephant can't just be stuffed on the plane and I think, well, it's that. Go global, think local. And what that means for me is that align around the intention of the policy what do you want to achieve? But then trust the systems in the diverse lands to come up with solutions that they can own. So trust that the system is innately intelligent, creative and they will come up with solutions around diversity that work for them and will give you the result that you're looking for.

Speaker 1: 24:31

If you want to cookie cut a stamp, it won't work because it won't be relevant, it may not honor the local deities, it may not be culturally appropriate. You know you, you miss, you would be missing a lot of perspective that the local teams have right. So, um, does that mean we can't control everything? Yes, does it mean we have to trust the local teams a lot more? Yes, yes, is that scary? Yes, I'm sure it is. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:04

But it is the only way forward, in my belief.

Speaker 2: 25:07

So you're raising a number of issues. You know one of them has to do with you know you mentioned think global act local, which is hard to do because if, especially if you look at it from a large global organization's perspective you don't know, you can't control, it's very hard to police what happens locally. It's almost more comforting to design a method and say, okay, we've got it, absolutely A nice global communication strategy around it and we push it out the door. Global communication strategy around it and we push it out the door. That's almost easier to do than to start doing what you just suggested. It's scary. Do we have the talent locally? Can they actually come up with these localized solutions? How do you actually operationalize something like that? How?

Speaker 1: 26:01

does it work? I think the question I always ask is how much money are you willing to throw away?

Speaker 2: 26:06

Willing to throw away.

Speaker 1: 26:07

Throw away, because if you push what you believe is right and it doesn't work, how much will that cost you Versus perhaps, implementing a process which might be slower? Perhaps implementing a process which might be slower because we may need to educate teams, empower teams, train up teams to think and be brave enough to speak up and provide solutions. So it might take a little longer, but in the end, teams themselves will come up with solutions that will work in their context. So how do we operationalize that? The best way for me is to ask the local teams what's needed, what's appropriate. I would say spend more time upfront asking more questions.

Speaker 2: 26:55

Yeah, you mentioned earlier on. You know there might be a policy or there might be a desired objective that an organization sets. It could be to do with gender, it could be to do with other versions of diversity, it could be the way they recruit local talent, et cetera, et cetera. But you mentioned, you know there is the policy or the desired outcome, but there is the intent behind it. So it seems you're saying focus more on the intent. Is the intent behind it? So it seems you're saying focus more on the intent than the how-to and if the intent is clear, then figure out the how-to. Local Is that?

Speaker 1: 27:32

the direction you wanna go. I think so. So be clear on the what and the why, and then let them figure out the how Right, because you'll get your result. It might look different in different countries, but the outcome will be what you want.

Speaker 2: 27:47

It almost sounds like if that's the way to go, then from a global if you have a global organization point of view they need to be more coach oriented in the way they navigate how things are globally done in different locations. Maybe more coaching skills for people who are at these global roles.

Speaker 1: 28:07

I think so so well, the coaching and the education starts at the global perspective right, allowing them to understand that in a world with different cultures, the same solution might not work a world with different cultures, the same solution might not work. And helping them, you know, move away from what they believe to be right to being more curious, asking more questions, the ability to ask more questions, and accept that different isn't wrong, it's just different. And if I hold that to be true, how do I challenge my own beliefs and then get curious about what's being said? Challenge my own beliefs and then get curious?

Speaker 1: 28:42

about what's being said. That will allow me to trust more, but there might be more skills and education that's needed on the ground.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Absolutely. We're talking about skills and education. Some of the people in our network have said well, sometimes people want to do too much too fast. Either it's to do with the law the law dictates that we need to have a percentage of certain types of diversity, so we need to hit that percentage as quickly as possible or there's been a legal fallout. Legal fallout Typically it's related to racism, nasty stereotypes, popping up unconscious bias, taking organizations into the wrong direction. So there's that trigger and then they say, okay, now we need to do something about it and we need to follow the directives from above. And then people push that out the door and then it quite frequently has a negative impact.

Speaker 2: 29:48

One of our facilitators he says he's often seen and this was within the North American context and he says often programs like that. The way they impact the participants is fight or freeze. And he says we've been brainstorming about finding solutions. How do you get to a point where these programs become fun? The coaching journeys become fun. They are relevant in the local context. People walk away from them not with their hairs up and emotions all over the place, and so I'm done with this and I'm frustrated about it. How do you get back to really the joy of exploring diversity, the joy of building culture together. How do you do it?

Speaker 1: 30:38

I think it's really important to provide people with a positive experience, to move away from finger pointing and finding various groups wrong, because we're all right and we're also all wrong. In OSC we have, you know, everybody is right partially, and the opposite of that is also true right.

Speaker 1: 30:56

And so if we can create an environment which is fun, and so if we can create an environment which is fun, it's powerful. People feel like their voice is valued when they speak. They feel heard, they feel understood and at the same time, they're learning to challenge their own mindsets, challenge their own perspectives. They get taught questioning techniques or they get taught tools to really listen to each other, give each other feedback in a way that is respectful and not hurtful. All of a sudden, people start enjoying what they are doing.

Speaker 1: 31:35

I was working with a very large local company fairly recently and all of the cultural stereotypical behaviors were present. All of the cultural stereotypical behaviors were present. I had lots of choices. I could have got upset, I could have put my foot down, I could have got to a more school teacher-ish approach, but I didn't. I chose to step into relationship and I designed the workshop. Not the tools and skills, because those had been agreed to up front, but I designed with the participants. How did we want to create this day that we had together? What would work in terms of timings, checking your phones, walking in and out? How do we want to be around all of that?

Speaker 1: 32:16

And they truly came to the party. They were present. The disruptors became my biggest allies, you know. Afterwards, in a way it pleased me but also broke my heart a little bit, because they came to me and said this was the best course we've ever attended. We walked in here thinking I've attended so many of these leadership development courses, what on earth can this lady teach me? But they felt that we had put some very applicable tools in their hands. We'd given them skills which were relationship skills so that they could take not just in their teams as leaders, but also in their families, in their social groups, in all of their environments. So they learned in a fun, engaging environment. No one was made to feel wronged in any way and we put usable tools in their hands. So it wasn't theoretic based there was very little theory, if you will. So they walked out knowing what to do next, if you will, very applicable, and they loved that.

Speaker 2: 33:25

I'm picking up on something you say, because I think it's important that what you give people is not just applicable at work, and that's in our intercultural agility work that's always been super important for us. You know, you can use those tools when you go shopping, when you're out and about, when you're with your loved ones, with family, and with your colleagues and with your clients. I think that's also one of the connect points from the early days that we both have that desire to really give people relational skills, no matter who they're connecting with.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Yeah, Absolutely, and I'm very aware that when I work with a group of leaders probably a few months ago I finished a workshop with young leaders at this age I'm usually the oldest person in the room. But why that's absolutely delightful for me is that when I asked the question, how many of you have children? They all put their hands up. So we're putting these skills into mothers and fathers hands leaders, of course and they're going home and teaching these skills to their children. So it's got a it's world work in the end has a knock-on effect.

Speaker 1: 34:39

I can't imagine how different my life would have been if somebody had put these tools and skills in my hands when I was five or six or ten. My whole life would be different, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:50

So their first team is their home team. Yes, absolutely yeah, that's great. Now we already have you know. You started to give examples just now about you know, the actual creation of culture. You say relationship is important, but ultimately it needs to go somewhere right, so it needs to become so. This idea of creating culture we've started saying recently. You know, every time two human beings meet, they are creating culture. The question is, how good are you at doing it? Or is it just happening to you and you're not in control of it? You say, oops, what just happened? Yeah, you know. So I love that. How, how does all the work you do, how does that sort of culminate into that and why is it so important?

Speaker 1: 35:40

Because relationship matters. In a world that has more and more challenge and conflict, relationship and, dare I say, love matters. And, yeah, something is generated. Two people make eye contact and it's either a project or a baby, but something is created. And so we focus people on being conscious and intentional about the relationships they want to create. And that's why cultural agility is so important, Because we're not just coming together I mean teams come together to produce something, a project, and as a couple, we come together too.

Speaker 1: 36:17

But how do we come together? How do we produce that project? And we know that the more positivity there is in a team meaning not rah, rah, rah, happiness but the more positive we feel about working together, the more safe I feel when working with you, the more trust that's born between us, the more I can feel safe to fail and then pick myself up and continue to work. So the more positive a team feels, the more productive they will be, and people of diverse cultures feel safe when they feel heard, seen and understood. That's why we want team members to be conscious and intentional about the dynamics they are creating together.

Speaker 2: 37:06

Now, you've already mentioned a number of ingredients that you sort of use. So, if you think about your work as putting a beautiful meal together, you've mentioned a number of ingredients, but also, just for our audience maybe, what are your key ingredients? If you think about working with a team, what makes a beautiful meal?

Speaker 1: 37:28

That's such a big question. To start off, I like to sprinkle in a good amount of powerful questions and I teach the team, or coach the team, to be curious about each other, so to challenge their perspectives. We all make judgments and challenging my perspective means not assuming that my judgment is right, but going out and checking and being curious and accepting that that could be your truth. Very often I believe my way is right and therefore you are wrong and that's what causes the conflict. Right, but if I can accept, well, my way is right and somehow you're also right. So being curious around that and then helping the team to design how they want to be around that, how do we move forward, accepting that both of those need to exist somehow in the way forward?

Speaker 2: 38:24

Maybe just to comment on that, because I think that's important in our world, that it is actually very possible to be in relationship and have a very different perspective on things, and I find that the media at the moment, some politicians, some cultures, seem to say no, no, no, that's not possible. If people think different from you, you disconnect, you find people who think like you which you seem to say no, that's actually. I want to pursue the opposite.

Speaker 1: 38:53

I think there is so much at the moment that's creating division out in the world the media, social media, the news everything's creating division and accentuating the division. It's easier to be with like-minded individuals because there are commonly understood norms which we can quickly align around. But it doesn't mean that if we're different, we can't get along and create strong, powerful, connected relationships. I we can't get along and create strong, powerful, connected relationships. I think we can, but we have to be curious and accept that there is diversity, to talk about that diversity, not just ignore it. So, for example, staying away from comments like I don't see the diversity, we're all the same, but when you say that you're actually marginalizing a diversity piece, so name it and get curious about it and then build a relationship that is inclusive of all of those diversity pieces.

Speaker 2: 39:50

So what are some other ingredients in your beautiful tasty meal?

Speaker 1: 39:56

I like to encourage people to turn towards each other, not away from each other, and that's challenging sometimes. So staying away from communication pieces that are disrespectful Disrespectful in all cultures but learning what respectful communication sounds and looks like in different cultures. And so, for me, communication is key so that we can fight right. So, for me, communication is key so that we can fight right. Have fights that, you know, don't upset or offend, but allow us to stay connected. I was 40 when I learned that you can be angry with someone and fight and still be respectful. I didn't know that before. I thought fighting was all out war and it was important to win, and, of course, you don't win at all right.

Speaker 2: 40:46

You just create division and in the end… it deteriorates very fast when it becomes personal.

Speaker 1: 40:49

Right, yeah, right. So teaching each other to truly… Teaching team members to truly hear each other.

Speaker 2: 40:55

This is also very, very key and respecting what I'm hearing, even though I might hold a very different opinion, how do you work with leaders, because I know leaders play a key role, but how do you allow them to be part of what you're trying to accomplish?

Speaker 1: 41:11

Very important question. So often we get called to the table and the leader says coach, my team, they are the issue. So the first is an educational piece that you are part of the dynamic. Each one of you plays a very different role, but an integral role. It's that puzzle piece. So the leader must be in and I start to work with the leader, upfront role modeling how I would like for us to then be with the team as a whole, so designing with the leader how do they want to be with me and me with them? How do we want to partner together? How do we want to work through our differences or our challenges?

Speaker 1: 41:58

Probably my most challenging conversation was with a team leader. This one happened to be a man. He had a very strong work ethic, was very dominant and felt very uncomfortable, being vulnerable, okay. And so there was a design piece around that and he kept speaking over me and interrupting me. So I kind of had to meet him eye to eye and say I'm driving this bus and although he acknowledged that that was a tough conversation to have, he was thankfully able to surrender to my leadership in that moment and that was a great learning point for that leader, because that dynamic? Well, there are parallel processes happening all the time. Right, that dynamic? Well, there are parallel processes happening all the time. So that dynamic was playing itself out with the team. Except they had a lot more to lose by standing up to him. So what happened between us now could be role modeled and I could empower him to lead that piece in the team because he needed that and it gave the team members hope.

Speaker 2: 43:01

They saw it happen in front of them Right and it gave the team leader a new platform to move forward in a different way.

Speaker 1: 43:07

Yeah, the magic was in that was that this leader was extraordinary because they were really there to learn and the vulnerability came through from the very beginning and that allowed the team to be vulnerable. It allowed the team to see that person and not just the mask that they'd been wearing yeah and it was extremely powerful. They walked away. The engagement scores in the organization shot through the roof just because the of that work that we did in that multicultural team and brought the leaders as a leadership team much closer together.

Speaker 2: 43:48

We alluded here and there in this conversation to the challenges of the world that we live in. When you think about your work and working with teams, working with leaders, working with organizations what are some of the most important challenges that you would say, yeah, that's what people need to really pay attention to. Conflict Okay.

Speaker 1: 44:15

Fighting right is for me key across cultures. Right is, for me, key across cultures. Fighting right, for me, means being passionate and unfiltered and respectful and allowing all voices to be heard and valued. Everybody has a right to speak and be heard, and not dominating the conversation and believing that my way is the right way.

Speaker 2: 44:41

Unfortunately, we don't live in a world with a lot of good examples.

Speaker 1: 44:44

No, you just have to listen to the news, right? Yeah, I've become a little bit almost intolerant of what I hear in the news and at the same time, that drives me even more to do the work that we do, marco, because I truly believe conflict is healthy. We don't want vanilla and we don't want cookie cutter of each other. It's so precious to be diverse and the only way that we can work through the challenges between us is to have conflict. But if you view conflict as a doorway, or a dream door, to something different wanting to emerge and we believe that and we stay in the fight, but have a clean fight or fight right we can create something different in the world.

Speaker 2: 45:35

So learning to be okay with tension, conflict, difference of opinion, but also having the skills to find that door and walk through it together. What else do you see in the world? What's important to pay attention to?

Speaker 1: 45:52

For me, some of the news in the world makes me feel like there are impossible situations, right, some of the news pieces that are emerging feel gridlocked, right, and we know that if we try and resolve conflict at the level that it's playing out, we can't unlock that gridlock.

Speaker 2: 46:15

It's too complex, too many people, too many parties involved, etc.

Speaker 1: 46:19

That's right. The key to resolving gridlock is to going back to how do I feel, what's emerging in me in terms of emotion, and then re-dreaming up that story. Right, re-dreaming up the story. If I rethink the story of what I'm feeling in a different way, the way I behave will be different. And if we do that together, we can start to unlock some of these terrible, impossible situations that are emerging in the world. But to do that, we have to accept that if I'm feeling frustrated and you're feeling frustrated, it might be for two very different reasons, it's true, and I bear some responsibility of how you're feeling, and vice versa.

Speaker 2: 47:08

Yeah, the thing to that point. I think there's a lot of dilemmas we face in the world that are really going to be with us for the foreseeable future. Be with us for the foreseeable future and the illusion of let's solve this problem or let's overcome this challenge is something that I have to. I naturally want to solve the problem and move on, but a lot of these dilemmas you can't solve. You just have to collaborate and connect and find ways to navigate it more effectively. And connect and find ways to navigate it more effectively. So doing what you're saying, doing that at a more granular level, as opposed to all focusing on the big macro issues. One of the issues that's thrown at everyone, of course, is the whole technology. Some people say industrial revolution 4.0 is already passé. 5.0 has already started, with AI taking incredible flight, sometimes uncontrolled. The world of work is changing rapidly. What do you see with teams and how do people prepare for all these changes? All this friction, all this conflict how do people prepare for that? How do you work with teams too?

Speaker 1: 48:22

It's true, marco, the leaders that we work with are complaining a lot about the pace of change and the type of change that's happening. We I mean as a Generation X dare I say that in our lifetime how much change we've seen and it feels like it's accelerating right. So we've got so much change and so much diversity that we could never have dreamt of. So equipping leaders to navigate this is important. Ai is emerging quickly, but one thing that machines cannot teach us is how to be human. So my belief is and I guess that's one of the drivers why I'm driven to doing this quicker and quicker with larger and larger groups my belief is that AI can't teach us how to be in relationship, how to be human. How to be human, it's the ability that we will have to stay human and connect at a relationship level, which is going to be more and more important, learning skills to collaborate better and be creative and access our creativity.

Speaker 1: 49:40

You know, um, how do we have empathy for each other, right? How do we really come from a place of love and one where I want to hear your point of view, where I can suspend my point of view and then champion your point of view. You know, one of my team members the other day laughed because they said to me how do we get to this place where you had one point of view, point of view A, I had point of view B and by the end of it you are holding my point of view and I was holding yours. How did that swap? And I said that is the crux of humanness, of conscious and intentional relationships, where we bring love and empathy to the table, because I care about you and your point of view and vice versa, that I want to find a way forward together and I think machines can't take that away from us.

Speaker 2: 50:32

Some people might say well, that's all you know. It sounds really almost utopian. How does that allow us to be a more successful organization? So what have you seen?

Speaker 1: 50:48

Because at the moment, we still have humans working in our organizations. It's the humans, who have a very human experience, that are getting the work done. We're not at the place where it's just machines and one day I might be eating my own hat but at the moment we still have humans, and so it's important to own our humanness and to help organizations do the same.

Speaker 2: 51:13

Yeah, it's a future that we don't quite know what it's going to look like. But, yeah, a lot of the even if just reading lot of the, even if just reading up on this the skills we need for the future. That which is now is really all about some of the ones you just mentioned collaboration, holding conflict much more loosely instead of tightly being in relationship with people who think different from us, connected to people who are more divergent and, as a result, coming up with better solutions, better creativity so all of those are almost must-haves and creating team cultures where they can flourish. Absolutely, I think it's super important and obviously I can see that you're passionate about your work. You love what you do and it's almost dangerous in today's world to ask where are you going to be a few years from now? Would you still be doing this work? What are you hoping for?

Speaker 1: 52:12

Sometimes I think how nice it would be to be sitting on a beach reading a book and living my life out in that way, but I know that not to be true for myself, or not for very long or not for very long.

Speaker 1: 52:21

Or not for very long, especially because of what you've just said. For me, my work is not a job. It's almost like a vocation. I am driven to create more peace in the world, one team at a time. If I can help teams fight right or be in better relationship, help teams fight right or be in better relationship, then I will feel like my work is done. My work is valuable and there is no end to that. There is no end to supporting or coaching teams to learn how to be more empathetic, more collaborative and to be more respectful towards each other even during conflict. More collaborative and and to be more respectful towards each other even during conflict. So I don't see my work maybe slowing down, but not ever ending. Yeah, well.

Speaker 2: 53:07

Thank you so much for today's conversation. Thank you, um, and if if you've listened to this conversation today and you want to connect with linda, her contact details will be in the notes section of this podcast. So connect with her, connect with the Berlotte Group team, and I'm sure that your team or your leadership situation can be equally impacted by how Linda engages with teams. So thank you for joining on the podcast. It's always great to unpack these conversations and we will continue to work together.

Speaker 1: 53:43

We certainly will, Marco. Thank you for inviting me on the podcast. It's always delightful. I love these conversations between us. We generate a lot of sparkiness between us and I always enjoy that.

Speaker 2: 53:54

Thank you. Thank you for listening everyone.

Speaker 1: 53:57

Thank you everyone.

Speaker 2: 54:00

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel, or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. As always, if any of the topics we discuss today intrigue you, you will find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about intercultural intelligence and how you can become more culturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworkscom and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworkscom. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, nita Rodriguez, ara Azizbakian, rajitha Raj and thanks to Vip and George for audio production, rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast. Thanks to Vip and George for audio production, rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast.