Ming-Jinn Tong: 0:00

And when people are given protection from fear by their leaders, they will be able to really unleash, unlock and deliver some incredibly unique, incredibly fresh, incredibly powerful gifts for the organization.

Marco Blankenburgh: 0:32

Welcome to the cultural agility podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world, to help you become culturally agile, and succeed in today's culturally complex world, I'm your host, Marco Blankenburg, international director of knowledge works, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. Welcome once again to another episode of the love Korean Cultural agility podcast. And I'm very intrigued by the topic of today, which is all about power. And we're gonna be talking about power with Ming Jin Tang, who is not a stranger to the unlocking cultural agility podcast. And it's so good to have you back again, Legion.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 1:24

It's great to be here. Yeah, very excited. I'm so excited to dig into all these wonderful questions.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:29

I'm afraid that this topic 50 minutes or 45 minutes won't be enough. So let's see where we land.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 1:37

We'll talk quick Marco.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:39

Well, some people this might be the first time they hear you on our podcast channel. So it would still be great if you could introduce yourself to new listeners.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 1:51

Yeah, fantastic. So yep. My name is Ming Qian, and I live here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and Marco, I've known you now for 13 years, I can't believe I've met you 2010 In Colorado, and I have really been just continuing to really be a disciple of ici, and to continue to see how worldviews and dimensions and culture are just all the time working around us. So I spend most of my time helping people have conversations around culture, whether it's individuals or groups of leaders, or organizations, helping them to have conversations, where I hope people wind up discovering, hey, I'm really an expert in culture, I just never talked about it very much.

Marco Blankenburgh: 2:44

That's great. I have been both inspired and blessed with you joining our global network, taking the lead also within the development of our work in North America, which is really exciting. And the topic of power is the search is everywhere. You just have to watch a movie, from superheroes to villains, you just have to open the newspaper, watch the news, any talk show, just open your social media. And a lot of comments people make nowadays its power is just everywhere. But today, there are many different ways to talk about power, you can talk about it from a positional point of view from a psychological emotional point of view from a resource and have and have nots point of view to many different ways to look at it. But today, we want to talk about it from from a cultural point of view, and, and maybe just off the bat, what why is that even important? Why do we need to have a better understanding of power from a cultural point of view?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 3:50

Yeah, great question. So I love words, I love definitions, let me just mock up a really small definition on culture. So if we were to think about culture, all around us, and for those of you that are listening in and aren't familiar with the knowledge works, handle on culture, we're not necessarily talking about your passport, right? We're not talking about the foods you ate, necessarily what you grew up, or the holidays that you you enjoyed. However, we are talking really about how so that's my, that's my one word, three letter definition of culture, how culture is how, how life is conducted. So we could be talking about how people are motivated, that would be connected to honor and shame or innocence and guilt, power and fear, and how values become expressed. And that really deals with the 12 dimensions of culture that we have similar values across cultures, but they're expressed in such different ways. So here's a small analogy. If I were to connect To power with culture, I think a fair analogy would be marketplace. Powers influence on culture is like currencies influence on a marketplace. But there's one big difference. The currency, power and culture is largely invisible. It's hard to see the influence of power at work.

Marco Blankenburgh: 5:30

Yeah, yeah. No thank you for, for getting us going on this because it's so crucial to go on. And now, maybe just to, to make sure we frame this conversation, because we could go in so many different directions. But what is what would your definition of power be?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 5:53

So this is how I think of it. Power, in its most granular form, is ability, power is ability. And then if I were to think about what the ability to do, or what to enable me to do, power is the ability for me to essentially control my environment to be in charge of my environment. So one definition that I've that I kind of use, is power is the ability to cause your reality, everything that's around you, to become closer to what you want to your will. So power is the ability to cause your reality to match your will, if I don't like something about in my environment. So right now, in Minneapolis, it's been extremely hot, 102 degrees Fahrenheit. Yesterday, I don't know what that is in Celsius, please google that and figure that out. Very hot. I, I don't enjoy the hot weather. I don't enjoy the humidity, it was 80% humidity. And so what do I do, I simply go on my phone and open my Nest app. And I change my entire environment with the click of a button, I can turn on my air conditioning unit. I can evaporate all the humidity, I can lower the temperature, that's power at work, causing my reality to become conformed to my will.

Marco Blankenburgh: 7:23

Yeah, so you're talking not just about people, but you're also talking about resources, your environment, your context. So power can flow in many different ways to your environment. And some people are able to make changes and align and other people do not have that capability or are not positionally able to do it.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 7:46

Yeah, I think I think we're all on a spectrum, right? Each of us are on a spectrum of our own. And if there's one spectrum for the world, we are all on different places. So some people have a greater ability to control their environment. And some people have a lesser ability. And then if we were to map where different people are, some people have a lot of control over a lot of realities in their life. And some people have less control over a lot of realities in their life. And it's a great observation marker that I'm talking about control over things, material, things like my air conditioning, or my environment. And that question there about people that that's where things really get can become very dangerous. I don't, I think I'll use the word colorful. But when we start talking about the relationship between a person and their power, to control another person, that's where there's that's where culture comes in. Right? Both when we when we talk about morality, and when we talk about how and if we should be going in.

Marco Blankenburgh: 8:56

Yeah. Now, there's a lot of books that have been published about power of the subject of power. And I just did a quick scan on Amazon, in the book section, and, you know, the top 20 books are predominantly looking at power from a Machiavellian point of view. He wrote a book many, many years ago, called the Prince and power in, in that book is not bound by ethics. It's what end justifies the means is one of the phrases in there and it's just fascinating to me that a lot of the books that are being sold right now and that aren't the top of the list are more of that flavor. So why is humanity so in love with that version of power sort of the lording over the wanting to be the top dog the you know, obey and listen and ask questions later type of approach what why are we so in love with that? Yeah.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 10:02

That's a great question. Boy, okay, let, this may be a longer answer, but I'm gonna blow through this as fast as I can. So I would say, people, in essence, love power, because people love to survive. They love to live. I believe that all worldviews begin with fundamental awarenesses that we are taught, especially as children. So I grew up every time entering the room, I grew up in a Chinese household, Taiwanese household. And I was taught very, very keenly, who is who when you see Grandma, you must always stop, stop moving, say hello to grandma. And then you can move forward after she acknowledges you as well. So an awareness of relationship produced an honor, shame worldview for me, then when I went to school, you walk in the classroom, it's not a picture of the principal, or a picture of the teacher, or even the governor of the state. What's on the wall is a list of rules. And so my awareness of rules was deeply put into me, and that produces innocence and guilt. So you have to have rules to have what's innocent, and what's guilty. And so it begs the question, what is the fundamental core awareness of someone that is aware of power and fear. And I think that that awareness really is survival. So because humanity has the deep, primal notion to survive, we gravitate toward what it takes to survive. And oftentimes, its power, enabling us to manipulate our environment to keep us alive. So just Just one last step here, when what happens when we get over the hump? When when survival, like physical survival is no longer on the table, right? I know, I can be fed. I know I can I have sheltered and such, the question then becomes what gives me real life. And we found out, it's not just the ability to survive. But the ability to provide that surviving and flourishing on myself is not enough that I actually feel the greatest satisfaction when not only I'm flourishing, but the community around me is also flourishing.

Marco Blankenburgh: 12:41

Now, we have a lot of different examples. Often, when we start a conversation around power, when we start to discuss it, you already alluded to the three colors of worldview, where power is one of the three main cultural drivers, when we bring it up, people sort of sometimes get a little bit sort of uncomfortable or dies, they sort of move around their seat a little bit. And it always is, you know, you can almost see the stories in their head, which then later they start talking about those stories, and the typically the negative stories that first come out. So it almost seems that we have a bit of a uncomfortable relationship with power, but also, the negative stories pop up first, most of the time, you know, you hear people say, power corrupts and corrupts absolutely. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. So why why is it actually misunderstood?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 13:40

Yeah, I can, I've had those experiences, too, we talk about power. So at least in the US, my experience tells me that to be accused of having power is to be assigned guilt. So that's one, maybe one cause for that uneasiness. Another example that comes into my mind of why do we think of power as this negative thing. The stories that make the news are seldom the stories of people doing good for others. And so we almost never see the beautiful side of power, because it's not discussed. What we see is the awful ugly side of power. And so there becomes an association between a neutral entity which is power, and its associated historically and publicly, with the awful things that it can do. And very seldom with the beautiful things that it can do.

Marco Blankenburgh: 14:44

Yeah. Reminds me of the BBC has at least a few times a year now. They have an episode totally dedicated for to positive news. Oh, yeah. And you're right. Very often, we don't hear the positive news story. So people use their influence their resources, their position in society to do good things. You're right, you know, we emphasize the bad stories, because those make the news and those results in the likes and the clicks and shares, etc.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 15:16

Yeah, traffic jams don't happen when people observe other people driving well, right. They happen when everyone stops to observe how awfully something happened. Some kind of a car,

Marco Blankenburgh: 15:29

even on the other side of the highway. Yeah. You already alluded to, for instance, the example of your grandma, you mentioned already in the US that power and guilt are very closely related to each other. So obviously, it seems that people are viewing power in different ways across cultures. Can you talk to that furloughed?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 15:57

So? This is actually something Mark, I don't know if you and I have ever discussed this. But this is something that I I think I believe in and I work in this way. I think I live this way. All worldviews, innocence, guilt, honor, shame, power, fear, I think in a way are actually constructed around power. So let's let's let's make this example. How does the innocence guilt world a world that is based on logic as king, right logic is the way to think? If it's not logical, then it cannot be right. And it might not even be good, if it's not logical. How does the IG world deal with power? If we want to empower someone, we will tell them, hey, you can you can do this, you have the right to do it. And what we're saying is we are motivated them with a heavy dose of innocence. So it's this innocence that we're giving them and we're delivering it to them. And that bolsters their ability to do what they should do, right? Go and get your dream, go and make it happen. You can do it, it's within your rights, right? Go get this. So in a sense, becomes a feeder for their livelihood, to increase their power. However, when someone now has too much power, and we think they need to be deflated, we don't. In fact, we would look down on things like name calling, we would, you know, if you call their spouse or call their parents and tell them, hey, you know, I think your son or your daughter is acting in a way. That's that's a shame tactic. Right? We don't do that. When we feel like somebody's high, low level of power needs to be brought down, we go the legal route. In other words, we impute them with guilt. So guilt becomes the way to lower someone's power. Now, if we look at the honor shame world, the same thing, if we want to augment someone's power, we honor them, we help them to know you belong you are one of us, you are firmly in the circle, we give them honor to augment power. And if we feel that they have too much power, we will put shame on them to bring them back down. Now, here's where it gets interesting. It seems to me that if the tactics of innocence and guilt or honor and shame, don't work enough, the gloves come off. And now we're down to some very base realities or base actions such as physical harm, theft, perhaps, things that we might say crossed the moral line. And in that way, this kind of ungloved hand it's neither the glove of innocence or guilt, nor the glove of honor, shame. And now we have kind of this bare knuckle. I'm just going to exert my power over you to control essentially your reality, causing your reality to become formed from my will.

Marco Blankenburgh: 19:42

I love the fact that you allude to the reality that in right wrong innocence, guilt and honor, shame as well as Empower fear. Of course, power is very present. It's just part and parcel of being human, of having a society having a neighborhood having a family and And the way it plays out is then indeed very different. And that's what I find trips us up as human beings when we cross cultural lines. And as you started this conversation today, when we talk about cultural lines, we're not talking from one passport country to the next country, it could be from one neighborhood to the next neighborhood, it could be from one school to another school in the same town. Because culture is is created by human beings in a context, one family can be very different from the family next door. And the way power plays out in that context is very different. Now, you've mentioned the three colors of worldview a number of times already. And it's it's a incredibly sorry for the pump, but a powerful tool to use to create understanding. But the example you've finished with a with your explanation just now gives sort of a negative spin on a power of fear environment. And we've discovered that some environments are not driven by right wrong. They're not necessarily driven by owner shame. They're actually hierarchical power is what drives that context. Now, how does that work? Because for some people that that might be new, and how does power fear context work? How does a team works that looks like looks like that or operates that way? And it's very tempting to start with the negatives. So let's start with a positive. So what would a team or an organization look like where power is used in a positive way? Where it's used to make a positive difference? A positive contribution, where it's actually beautiful to watch? What does that look like?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 21:47

Yeah, oh, man. Okay, what a great question. And you're absolutely right, I ended on such a negative view of power fear, and that that is the starting place, right? I myself have fallen into the idea that power itself, there's something wrong with it, that it's always a scary thing. So if the question is, what does power look like, in a beautiful, beautiful used context, this is my first response to it. So when I have seen power used well, in especially in organizational environment, this is the strangest phenomenon that I've observed. Everyone is suspicious, everyone is suspicious for at least half of the year, if not more than that. And I think what happens is that people cannot truly receive that their leader is wanting to actually seek their good and the good of the organization, above their own advancement. And it is so backwards. So the first reaction is almost like people are allergic to the use of power in a benevolent way. And so people will self protect, they will withhold themselves. And they will actually say, I wonder what this leader is actually trying to do, because it can't really be this good. And so for this effect, especially if the organization is experiencing abuse of power first, and then transitions, either the leader has a dramatic change, or there's a change in leadership altogether. When people encounter a leader that is more concerned about the well being and the flourishing of the people that they are leaving, people don't know what to do with it. So they will hold back, they will very slowly test the waters, especially if they've been hurt. And once there has been enough consistency of power used well, people can really begin to bring their whole selves to work, or bring their whole selves, exposing every part, the, of course, the good and strong parts, but also the parts that they have kept hidden because they were afraid to bring those parts into the community. But when that does happen, and the leader or the leadership team begins to show, we really want to use our power. We understand we have power, and now we want to use our power to give you wings to fly. People can really begin to soar. They will no longer fear sharing an idea that they may think is silly or unexcited to move because it comes from my home culture, etc. And when people are given protection from fear by their leaders, they will be able to really unleash unlock and deliver some incredibly unique, incredibly fresh, incredibly powerful gifts for normalization.

Marco Blankenburgh: 25:25

And I've, I've seen that almost suspicion that it will start with, because validating and I love what you just said earlier, using power in a positive way requires benevolence, it actually requires generosity from whoever is, is making that paradigm shift or whoever enters into an organization or a team in that manner. It's fascinating because you need to first of all, be generous with giving power away, allowing people to speak allowing people to be part of the ideation process allowing other people's ideas to be adopted, and say that's a better idea than mine. So you need to be benevolent and relinquishing power, but it's also being generous, generous in investing in people. So in the larger organizations around the world, the word Empower is used so frequently, and it's almost like a trendy word, but at the same time, they fail to implement empowerment, because leaders don't want to be using power in that way, they still are holding on. Now, the way we look at power, the three colors of worldview is super helpful in helping to understand that some environments truly are operating based on hierarchy based on who's at the top of the hierarchy, how do I potentially get closer to that person, but power as you rightly mentioned earlier on is everywhere. Now in our, in our intercultural work, we found that there are other polarities, we call them cultural opposites, that are really helpful to understand power, even at a deeper level. So one thing that you've already talked about in even previous podcasts is that people seem to in a hierarchical power oriented environment, people seem to communicate in different ways. So direct versus indirect communication is used in a in a way that might be different, for instance, than in an innocent skilled or in an unashamed environment. People look at accountability, for instance, in different ways people look at status in our culture mapping inventory, we look at look at status from a scribed versus achieved point of view, also in a very different way. And the last one that's worth mentioning, is this idea of destiny, who controls my destiny, and are directed as in the environment, my boss, my leader, the forces at play in my life, Destiny, if is controlled by them, versus No, I am in control of my destiny. So when you think about those types of opposites, how do they help us understand the cultural side of power even more?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 28:19

Yeah, boy, that's it. That's a great question. That's a whole nother podcast. Yes.

Marco Blankenburgh: 28:29

I can pick any of those, you know.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 28:32

Sure. Yeah. Maybe I'll, I think I'll pick on accountability. So I also want to connect this answer to the to the answer before, okay. So one word that you use earlier was relinquish, for power, so a leader relinquishing power to empower the people that they are leading. However, I think and I think you would agree with this, that that relinquishing is not a zero sum game. Power is not a concrete object that or a finite object that goes from me. And in order for you to have some, I need to let go completely. That's not how it is. Right? Power is actually much more elastic than that. In other words, I can maintain power, and I can share it with you. And because you have a degree of power, it doesn't mean that I have less, it's not a zero sum game, that I can maintain it and share it with you. And so when we apply that now to the dimension of accountability, so the dimension of accountability for those of you that aren't familiar with this, it runs from one end of the spectrum one polarity is individual accountability. I am only accountable for myself, and the other end of it is group accountability. that I don't find the moral categories of good or bad based on my own self. But my community, I view myself as a part of community, and less as an individual. The way that power is looked at there then is very much in those same ways. So the individual accountability person will view power as this is my own thing, I have my own degree of power, I must protect it. And if I am to give it away, I am in control of that. However, on the other end of the spectrum, on the group accountability, you could say, power belongs to our community. In fact, our leader helps us to understand what is the nature of the power that we have, and what power does in that community is determined by the community as well. So when these two polarities come together, if you have people that are working together from two different ends of the spectrum, they really do need to consider number one, that's what I would just like to say, number one, be aware that that spectrum that that dimension of culture is at play, before we go throwing rocks at other people to say, You're not thinking about it, right? We need to first understand there is a dimension number two, where am I and where are they? And number three? How do we create an environment where we can both be comfortable in understanding where the other person is?

Marco Blankenburgh: 31:45

Let me ask you a contentious question. Because as the word agency comes to mind, so agency is talked about a lot in North America and in Europe, especially agency is a form of power, I would say. But it seems that it's very often used in an individual accountability way. And I would almost say sometimes even to the detriment of community accountability. So sorry to drop this on you. But what are your thoughts on that? You know, I believe in agency, I believe it's important, but what happens when it gets so emphasized? That it actually sacrifices community accountability?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 32:32

So when agency so just a quick definition on agency, let me see if we're on the same page here. Agency highlights a person's freedom, a person's rights and a person's ability to create to control their destiny or to be able to speak into it to take action on their own will. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. So if we were if we were to go with that definition, I think that my first observation is, the definition itself begins with a person and not a group or a community. And so when you have someone who is coming from the wanting to move on agency perspective, the first thing that they need to be aware of is people in their community that come from a group accountability place, they will look in to that acting out of your agency, as self centered, perhaps they might look at it as disconnected. They might look at it as kind of a lone wolf idea. Yeah.

Marco Blankenburgh: 33:49

And the, we talked about one of the dimensions, you selected the accountability, one, I don't know if we probably have time for this, but the one that that I have seen around the globe, that is often misunderstood, when it comes to hierarchy and power is the destiny dimension. So, it sort of is linked to this idea of agency, but directive destiny is I take charge of my future, my opinion is important, I need to find ways to to voice that opinion, I need to be part of the decision making process. My thoughts and my ideas need to be heard. And the other side of that dimension is directed destiny and indirect destiny. Typically people accept hierarchy, they accept that that that they will get their sort of marching orders from above, and that they get told what to do and they're perfectly happy with that. And I've talked to many people around the world who come from a director, Destiny environment and And they actually love it. Today they feel it gives them security, it gives them stability, they know exactly what's expected from them. They, quote unquote, fall in line, but they don't even see it that way. For them, it creates flow that creates that bound healthy boundaries around how I go about my life, how I go by my job, etc. And then the other side, people who are directive Destiny oriented, they say, Yeah, but no, no, that's not how life is supposed to be lived, you know, you need to take control, and you need to make sure that you speak up, and you need to make sure your voice is being heard. So that's another polarity that we find where power is sort of misunderstood across the opposites of the directed versus directive destiny, what are your thoughts on it?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 35:50

I love that you said that for myself. I have always I've always said about myself, I am a number two guy, I am not the one in charge. And I don't want to be the one in charge. And I think that's from my upbringing, I feel as a directed Destiny person, I feel so much more comfortable. When I do not have to be in charge. Don't let me make the decisions. Don't give me more power. Because with power comes responsibility. I don't want that responsibility, what I would like to do is I would like to be a cog in your machine, I believe in your machine, I believe your machine produces good things. And so the, the greatest fulfillment I can have for myself, is to participate in the system you set up, and you can help me flourish when you tell me go this far left and go this far right? Between that it's up to you, and make it happen in this space. And I can spin freely and quickly and effectively, in my position. And so that's my that's my own personal place on the on the total dimension, you know, on dimension destiny, I enjoy when I can be used well, for the development of a greater purpose. Give me a role and I will flourish in it. I have not desiring to become a leader. Let me serve. That's that's who I am. Yeah. So that's how it might sound? That is my reality.

Marco Blankenburgh: 37:33

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. I love that, you know, you can speak from personal experience and where your sweet spot is, so to speak. And we don't have time to talk about this. But what comes to mind is, there's some really interesting articles that talk about how the pandemic was handled by different governments around the world, and how environments who were more directed Destiny oriented, there was much more compliance. And if good decisions were made by the government, in a directed Destiny environment, typically, the way they manage the pandemic was actually much better. Of course, it requires good decision making. Sometimes, that wasn't the case. But indirectly, Destiny environments, even if good decisions were made by the government, sometimes that desire to make my voice heard and then caused all kinds of challenges in the system.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 38:31

Yeah, that's right. So it really does depend on trust, I will happily and eternally serve as a part of your system. If I trust you, if I know you're producing good. And if and if I can see it, you know that the pandemics is kept at bay, numbers of deaths are low, I'm going to continue to trust you and happily participate. So that is, you know, it's funny, even talking about this helps me to realize how much I am a directed Destiny person that I don't I don't really want to be in charge trying to get more power is not what I'm about. What I want to do is I want to see power used well, and I will play my role to make sure that happens.

Marco Blankenburgh: 39:19

And I love the fact that you mentioned trust in this equation, because that is absolutely important. So power use well creates trust in the system. And I've heard people say, I trust my boss, or my leader, my boss has my back. I know thy will are willing to die for me, I know that they will be there for me. And therefore I reciprocate with loyalty with commitment and giving 100% of who I am into the system. So trust is super important in that in that whole discussion. Now, we started in the beginning that with saying that we do have a bit of a challenge when it comes to power as humanity. You even mentioned an example we say when power is used in a beautiful way people are initially suspicious, you mentioned that you've seen it take up to six months for people to say, Oh, she's for real. She's consistent in how she operates. Or he's actually doing this, not just to, to push an agenda, but it's the genuine version of our leader. So how do we get there? How do we change our relationship with power? What can we practically do? Yeah.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 40:40

So what a great question. Number one is awareness, we have to be aware that we have power every person from the least powerful person, to the most powerful person, we all have a degree of power, so to become aware that you as a leader have power. And number two, not just general awareness, but specific awareness, which means listening, and observing, and having voices that you are willing to listen to, you should ask this to the people around you. Can you for the next week, make observations about the impact of My presence, anywhere I go, what's the impact of My presence, and then speak it to me, and I will listen to you. Because understanding the specifics of your power is the first way the first thing you need to do to be able to use it well. Number two, once you understand the impact of your presence, you need to then begin to evaluate. These are the impacts of My presence that I want to augment. And these are the impacts of My presence, that I need to evaluate more, and maybe I need to call them, I need to change them. But to be aware that as a leader, as soon as you step in the room, you are making an impact doesn't matter if you said a word, just your presence. So number one, awareness, number two, evaluation, understanding how your impact is. And then I think number three, is engaging in a discussion with your organization, about those those impacts that you have, and inviting people into that conversation. It could backfire. Here's how it could backfire. People could say this is a this is a trap, you are luring me in to be later punished. And if that's what you are really about, don't do that. However, if you are willing to listen, and willing to understand at both a knowledge and an emotional level, the impact I'm having on the people that I'm leading is such and such and such. And they are telling me that they would be better served. If these changes were made. Some things may be some things you know, you might hear, Well, you have a mean look on your face. Well, I didn't, I didn't mean to have a mean look on my face. That's just my face. So sometimes we hear things we don't want to hear that we don't want to accept. And this is where humility comes in. Am I willing to believe that even a benevolent act of saying hello, could be scary to someone? It doesn't necessarily mean I need to change necessarily, right? We're dealing with lots of different people. But being willing to listen to what people are saying. And taking small steps to have discussions toward change, I think is how we slowly turn the ship from maybe a misuse of power to benevolent use of power.

Marco Blankenburgh: 44:13

And even as you speak, made me realize that that's not necessarily an external journey. First. It's an it's an internal journey. Because ultimately, it's it starts to ask questions, if I'm in a leadership position. How much does this leader perceive position gives me identity, for instance, and the more identity that position gives me the more I want to hold on to it. And the more I am not able to think we as opposed to I'm only thinking about me, so it does a deeper soul searching on us that I think needs to happen especially if you're in a leadership position. I'm not you know, am I in this position because the position gives me value the position gives me identity, then it's very hard to be be empowering, and be what we call life giving. But that let's let's go one step further. Because you mentioned earlier on, everybody has power. And what I often find on teams, people say, Yeah, but I can't change anything. And what I find is when you start talking about thoughts, words and actions, then people start saying, oh, yeah, I could actually make some changes. Interestingly, the teams that we work with right around the world, when it comes to that discussion, one of the most common mentioned points is, oh, we need to stop gossiping. Because gossip is a form of wielding power. And I always joke with people I say, Well, let's talk about positive gossip. What would that look like? So turning your words not into from Gossip into affirmation into praise into? So how can we, even if we're going to code in a normal team player, people might say, well, I don't have any power. So how could we create a positive relationship with with power? In terms of how we think how we speak and how we act? What would be some practical things besides, you know, positive gossip versus negative gossip?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 46:28

Yeah. So let's look at even that statement, I don't have any power, what am I going to do? Even in that, that there could be a wielding of power, right? So what you are, in essence saying is, don't assign any power to me, I am, in fact, powerless. Therefore, when we talk about positive change in the organization, you need to remove my name from that change. And that's actually a way that people can start around responsibility, instead of saying, Okay, our organization, it depends on everyone. And no matter even if I really feel like I don't have power, I am still belonging to the organization. So, again, what are the practical steps that someone who feels quite powerless, is able to do to bring about positive change in the workplace? Boy, I would say, so major caveat here, there really is such a thing as a safety, and even psychological safety. So in as much as you can operate in a safe space, I think that exercising and demonstrating courage, to be among the first to begin to trust and begin to relate to leadership, in a trusting way, can be a major organizational changing factor. So let's say you have a leader who is learning to be more benevolent, magnanimous, in their use of power, they need people to respond to them in a way that helps everyone to grow. Now, again, there is some inherent risk here, right? Everyone feels suspicious. But if you can be among the first to say, okay, my leader is saying this, and I want to take them up on it, I want to say, Okay, I'm gonna go ahead, and I'm gonna respond positively to this. This begins to you always put yourself out there as a test case, for others to observe what's going to happen to this person, when they begin to trust leadership. And what I would hope is that leadership will prove that they are indeed looking for the good of that person. And others can join them in beginning to change the culture. In other words, it's not just a top down, leadership change that needs to happen. It's also willingness from those that are in subordinate positions to participate. Again, with the caveat of safety.

Marco Blankenburgh: 49:36

Yeah, it's fascinating when when people have to sort of intentionally start practicing these things, so you know, positive gossip, speaking well off each other or giving credit where credit is due. I remember I was doing an exercise with a team and they wanted to do sort of small affirmation cards. So write three things down from your colleagues that you appreciate. And it was introduced by one of the team members. And this person said, Oh, I shouldn't take you more than, you know, for five minutes. And 15 minutes later, they were still working on it. And they said, This is hard. And it was it was a reflective of the fact that they are very good at pointing out what's wrong. But they were not so good at pointing out what was right. And it was like almost a mindset change that had to happen, where amongst themselves, they have the power to either choose to point out what was what was wrong, or choose to point out what was right. And when they first were asked to do that. They said, Man, this is hard work. But as they got further into it, it got easier and easier and easier. So it's almost like a reprogramming of the mind as well.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 50:57

Yeah. Yeah. I want to I want to go from the other side of that. What does it look like? For like, let's say you are you yourself are a destiny, directed person. And you are being told, please report on the work that you've done. Now to do that could really feel like Oh, I'm not supposed to boast about what I do. So there's a different kind. I mean, that's, that's like courage from the from the backside, are you willing to participate in a, you know, what you might think of as a self hosting kind of environment, when really, all you're being asked to do is to illuminate and inform the actions you've taken, so that everyone can celebrate, can move forward together to understand what's happening in the company. So yes, speaking well of others, but also taking courage to cross over to that other dimension, to speak well of yourself, actually. And to know, I'm not going to be punished for doing that.

Marco Blankenburgh: 52:21

Love that? Well, I think we landed on some very practical things that we do, I think what stands out to me is this, for all of us, myself included, to have that realization that we continuously are in positions of power. We are in positions of power in how we think about ourselves, how we think about others, how we think about relationships, about the place, the context of business, the team that we operate in. And you mentioned earlier on to really become aware and observe. And those, we talk about perception management to perceive at a deeper level two perceive to gather more data about myself about you about our relationship and about the context. And learn from that. And one of the things we love doing is to, to use our intercultural tools, three colors, a worldview and a cultural mapping imagery, but we also highly recommend people to be better student of the psychology of human beings. So whatever, you know, whatever you might be familiar with the strengths finders, Myers Briggs or everything this good. Yeah, exactly, you know, perceive better gather back more quality information, more comprehensive information, so that you truly understand how you impact the context and how you are impacted by the context and by the people in that context. And that's where we start to, to really get a handle on power, but also start to be more equipped to start tweaking to start playing around with different ways of being different ways of connecting and speaking and acting. And we could talk about this for hours, probably, but I want to thank you for for joining, ultimately, what we're looking for in our intercultural workers, we want to create culture together. So the conversation around power is super important. Because if we don't have a collective understanding of what we want power to be, it's going to misfire on us. So I want to finish up with that. So how can we as a team, as a group, it could be even as a family, but as a group of people that need to accomplish something together and do something together? How can we collectively really create that common understanding of power to create that third cultural space that common cultural space?

Ming-Jinn Tong: 54:51

Yeah, so for those of you that are listening, I get no financial kickback for this, but I do want to say that the place to begin And I think if you are serious about wanting to understand the level of power that you have are able to understand how power works. Put your team through the three colors of worldview assessment, because that assessment is designed to not only give you brand new lenses that you may have never thought before, but also to show you realities about yourself and your team. And it really is a catalyst. It's an entry gate to begin conversations in a very safe and welcoming place. There is no right place to land, there's no wrong place to land. But we all have an understanding of culture deep within ourselves. And when we can finally get eyes tangibly to see how those motivations innocence, guilt, honor, shame, power, fear are working in us. It unlocks deep and powerful conversations, perspectives, and the ability to finally see things, again, that invisible currency at work, it actually throws paint, and helps us to see how it's working.

Marco Blankenburgh: 56:17

Thank you so much for joining such an important topic. And we need an awful lot of deep diving as humanity, including myself, to really understand it better to embrace it to even maybe, you know, get to the point where we can celebrate power in a positive way. So thank you for for joining this conversation. And details on how to connect with Ming Jin will be shared in the notes of this podcast as well as some hyperlinks on further reading that you'll find on the knowledge books comm website. And thank you everybody for joining. And thank you, Jim, for being on this podcast again with us. Really appreciate it.

Ming-Jinn Tong: 56:56

Great to be here. Thanks for having me, Marco.

Marco Blankenburgh: 56:59

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the cultural agility podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. Best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast, app or channel or forward and recommend this podcast people around you. As always, if any of the topics we discuss today intrigue you, you will find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about intercultural intelligence and how you can become more culturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledge works.com Special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole knowledge works team for making this podcast a success. Thank you Anita Rodriquez, Ara as is back Ian Raji Suraj and thanks to VIP and George for audio production, Rosalyn Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast