Victoria Hopkin: 0:00

And it's it's so important to empower them to say, not only do we want you to identify your cultural, you don't even need to say the cultural part. But you know, how do you want me to praise you? How does this work for you? You enable them to be metacognitive about all of those things that they themselves are internalizing, oh, I've never really thought about, I take it for granted that you would do this and I respond, but actually empowering them to think about their own makeup as we were saying at the very beginning, we're all uniquely wired and actually enabling them to think through that with someone of trust to create this environment is electrifying, isn't it?

Marco Blankenburgh: 0:56

Welcome to the cultural agility podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world, to help you become culturally agile, and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenburg, international director of knowledge works, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:25

Welcome, everyone, to the cultural agility podcast. We are thrilled to be here today we're going to talk about intercultural agility and education. And we have with us today, Victoria, and Yasmine, who both have such experience in this realm that we're going to pick their brains and learn from them today. So I'm so glad you're here and you can join us. So, Victoria, can you just say hello.

Victoria Hopkin: 1:53

Hi, everyone. Thank you for having me here on this podcast.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:57

It is our joy we are I'm gonna read your little bio. Victoria is a teacher, a school leader, a coach and an educational researcher with a passion for intercultural agility as an expert in intercultural coaching Victoria its Victoria's gives me PhD research focuses on cultivating environments which are inclusive, and culturally adaptive. Renowned for her empowering coaching approach, Victoria unlocks the potential within individuals fostering a safe and inclusive space that celebrates and embraces cultural diversity. Her mission is to empower clients to thrive in our intercultural world. We are so glad to have you, Victoria. Thanks for being here. Thank you, and Oh, you're welcome. Great. And then next, we have Yasmine, Yasmine, can you say a quick hello.

Yasemin Altas: 2:50

Hello. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. Super excited about this.

Shelley Reinhart: 2:57

Me too. I can't wait to get started. Yasmine has been teaching at universities for nearly three decades, half of them in the United Arab Emirates, and she's a faculty member teaching Intercultural Studies, along with other general study courses at the higher colleges of technology, which is a federal institution with branches across the UAE. She has an MA in management and education. She's a trained CELTA teacher trainer has been involved with projects with the UAE Ministry of Education. And she is also currently doing a PhD in education with a specific focus on Intercultural Studies. And she's taught intercultural studies to many undergraduate Emirati students and has lots of stories to share with us later on, which we're really looking forward to. So thank you both for being here. And I'd like to start off, could you please give me a little bit of your backstory, where you grew up? What sparked your interest in intercultural things and your curiosity regarding culture? So because we're teachers, we'll start alphabetically. So I'll start with Victoria. So Victoria, can you give us a little bit about your backstory?

Victoria Hopkin: 4:08

Yes, of course. So I grew up on a really small island, called Guernsey, it's in the Channel Islands. For those of you who have no idea it's in between England and France. So we're kind of in no man's land. My Island is very unique because it's so small, very monocultural. So I didn't really explore the mainland is what we call it back there. We didn't explore England until I was much older. And that opened my eyes to the real world. Following my teacher training, and my teaching experience, I moved over to Singapore. And then I moved over to Shanghai, China. And I think that's really where my passion for culture started. Partially because I was the minority. And I think having grown up on an island where I look like everyone around me, suddenly I was in a place where everyone said had it me. And the language being spoken was different to my language. And my empathy for that really started at that point and has grown from that point on.

Shelley Reinhart: 5:11

Wow, yes, I love that it's such a unique experience to be the minority. I think I wish everyone in the world had the chance to feel that, you know, it's

Victoria Hopkin: 5:19

very humbling. Because, again, being white British woman, I'm very aware of that space that I hold in the in the world. And actually stepping out of that into a different world was liberating and quite scary. And I think it just gave you that insight into things that we maybe take for granted. Other people face on quite a daily basis.

Shelley Reinhart: 5:43

Yes, I agree. I love that you share that that's an important point in our cultural agility and studies. So what about you, Yasmine give us your backstory?

Yasemin Altas: 5:57

Well, going back to what Victoria said about, you know, being a minority, I think I felt that throughout my life in different contexts, so I was born and brought up in Germany, my parents are Turkish. So for most of my life, you know, at home, you are basically in a Turkish environment. And then schooling was in a German environment, so that you still are a little bit like the, you know, the different one in the classroom, back then, looking a little bit darker than the others. And then, when I was about 13, my parents decided to move back to Turkey. And that started my second stage of feeling a little bit like a minority. It was different because now I was the now I, again, I was the, you know, the stranger, the, the one that is different, basically, because suddenly, I was the one who came from Germany and didn't speak any Turkish, like, I was really bad back then. I didn't know the education system, I had major issues, at the beginning, trying to get used to the education and the expectations from the teachers. So I've always felt a little bit like the outsider and trying to understand where I belong to. And that question was always one of the issues I had, you know, like identity, a lot of people would ask still today, so, you know, are you Turkish? Or are you German? is home? And that question for very long time, I was not able to answer it, but it was bothering me. But through Intercultural Studies and learning more about the concepts, and the more I got into Intercultural Studies, the more I was able to feel where I belong. And that's why I'm so interested in intercultural studies as well.

Shelley Reinhart: 8:11

Yes, I can see that. Oh, thank you for sharing that story. And I wonder how many people listening today have felt that struggle with identity? It's, yeah, it's profound changes, it changes you.

Yasemin Altas: 8:26

I think a lot of people, for a lot of people, the answer is so obvious. You know, it's your nationality, your identity, where you live where you bought up. There's so obvious answers to these but for me, all my lifelong that obvious answer was just not there. yet. I don't feel German. I don't feel really particularly Turkish. My home could be anywhere. I'm not quite affiliated. Would I go and live in Germany right now? No, not really. And Turkey. Yeah, because my parents are there. But where is home that quest that you know, who am I? Is, is is a question that can be quite eye opening. And especially I think that's why Intercultural Studies, and ICI has helped me a lot personally as well, to grow and be at more ease with myself. That's why it's my passion is Yeah, and I feel as a teacher here in the UAE, I see a lot of my students are also going through the same struggles where they have especially now with the UAE students, I think it's very hard for them, because Dubai and the UAE is going through this transition of more conservative to more liberal, but my students are sort of the first generation that is having a university degree and their parents are still more conservative. They're not as exposed to social media. So my students quest off identity and what they want in the future, and where do they belong to? Where do they see themselves in the future of their own country? These are all very important questions that they have. And ici actually helps them just to reflect and understand themselves better,

Shelley Reinhart: 10:28

how wonderful that you are in their lives. And you you really do relate to that identity crisis you you are, you're there, and you're able to walk them through that. And that brings me to the idea of, of education. So, Victoria, what sparked your interest in education? Why education? And then why? Why Singapore? And why international education?

Victoria Hopkin: 10:50

The answer to the first question is simple. I was scared to do anything else. I enjoyed being with people. I enjoyed talking, I think most, most of my friends would agree I was just one of those. And I didn't really find my passion in teaching until I became a teacher trainer. And I didn't really consider that as a teaching profession, until I accidentally slipped into it as part of the leadership structure. Honestly, the reason I moved to Singapore is because I lived in London, and I realized I couldn't live in London, and live a great life on a teacher's salary. So I still Yeah. And it's interesting, I'd love to pick up on Yasmin's point, just for a moment of that idea of finding home. So from Singapore, I moved to Shanghai, and I'm in the UAE as well. So I can marry Yasmin's point of teaching in an international school rather than a kind of Emirati school that actually asked students of Third Culture, kids still experience that, where is home, I think a lot of them feel like they're snails, their home is on their back. And wherever their parents move to next is where they identify as home. So it's interesting to compare that, although you may be living in the country that you were born, you know, or you may not, you can find a home in different places, depending on where you feel your family are, where your friendship network is. So I find education is such a key to establishing that community for our students to give them a sense of home a sense of belonging. Because for me, I think that defines a sense of home for our for our students, which is integral in this global world that we live in now.

Shelley Reinhart: 12:35

Yes, I love that. And you teach in inter international schools, so kids are coming from all over the world, their parents are living and working in Dubai.

Victoria Hopkin: 12:44

Absolutely. And this transients there isn't there, because teachers, contracts change. People are here for a certain amount of time while the contract lasts, and they move. So they may be indifferent. For example, our son who's now 15, has lived in four different countries. And he's only 15. So for him to kind of identify, and he has mean the same thing for you, you know, Oh, where are you from? How does even answer that, like I was born here, but I spent most of my childhood here and now I'm here. So I feel as though this generation of specially of Third Culture kids is going to be one of where your roots or where, you know, where's your family's heritage, rather than the simple questions of where are you from? I think the global network now is opening us up. And I think through the work Yasmine is doing with Intercultural Studies is allowing people to see that possibility.

Shelley Reinhart: 13:39

Yes, and I love you know, Alex acknowledge works. We reframe that question in terms of self culture, that every person is a uniquely wired, cultural human being and has a story and in non monocultural you know, communities. That story is so important. And if you really want to know someone, where are you from? It's just it's just not the right question to start with. anymore, you know, so completely that What about you, Yasmine? What sparked your interest in education? Especially moving interculturally?

Yasemin Altas: 14:20

Um, I think interesting. I mean, I always, you know, moving back to Turkey, for example, I had some wonderful teachers who approached my situation and myself very positively. And became an inspiration for me. I looked up to these teachers and said, this is this is the kind of person I would like to be. But then I also had teachers who were just horrible. Who wouldn't understand my situation and who, frankly, were very, very be unprofessional, they would make fun of me, they would find out the way I was speaking. I mean, it's now I wouldn't be able to understand, like, how does the teacher even have the courage to, to, you know, behave in certain ways towards students? It's unbelievable. And it was it was it Turkey's university educated, you know, university entrance system is based on exams. And for me, basically, you know, coming from Germany with, you know, struggling with the Turkish language. For me, the best opportunity was language. Teaching. So I went into foreign languages, and that's my passion as well. And I didn't even think of becoming an educator until I was in my last year. And then once I was in the classroom as an intern, that's where I really had the spike. And I'm super glad that I chose this profession.

Shelley Reinhart: 16:07

Me too.

Yasemin Altas: 16:10

I, I've met so many students from you know, different lives, but it's just, it's a fascinating job, because it's never ever the same. It's always changing. And it's, it's, it pushes you as well. You have to change along with the students along with the new generation along with the technologies. So it keeps you very much on your toes. Why am I interested in intercultural studies and teaching into culturally, I came here to the UAE. Possibly like a lot of teachers, life in Turkey on a teacher's salary was really was really hard. And I came here, and I didn't think to be honest, I didn't think I would stay here for very long. But then once being in the teacher, I could connect with my students on a different level. For them, I was suddenly the Turkish teacher who is also a Muslim, but who has a very different approach to them. So for me to be with students, Emirati is Muslim Emirati students, and for them to look at me and see a potential in themselves as they, they can make changes in their lives. That was a huge inspiration both ways. Because when I came back from Germany to Turkey, some of my family members had a very similar approach to Emirati culture here, where it's like, you know, you don't have to push education so hard, it's back then it was my family, extended family members would say, okay, you know, you can learn how to, you can learn a few skills, you don't need to go to university. And then, you know, when you're 2223, you get married and have a family. And for me, that was like, a no, no, I had aspirations in my life. And it was, it was the start of a journey, not just for my own education and personal development, but also somehow training and educating my own family and changing their perspectives about things. And sharing these with the students here. And the students, every now and then coming back to me saying this, this is great. You know, I want to be like you. And I want you know, that is, that is a great feeling in the classroom. You see, yes, even though we are culturally very different. At the end of the day, these are teenagers, these are female, these are students and aspirations don't change even though your culture might be completely different.

Shelley Reinhart: 19:18

Yes. I love hearing that. And I love that. That you're tangibly making a difference. And isn't that what we love about teaching is just that opportunity to just freely invest in these students and also the teachers and how did you get introduced to intercultural agility through knowledge works? How did each of you kind of find knowledge works Victoria about you?

Victoria Hopkin: 19:49

I just picking up on Yasmin's point kind of really introduces how I got into actually that idea of looking at the responsibility that teachers have to negotiate different cultural nuances in the classroom, I think, often, especially in international scenarios, they teach a British curriculum or an American curriculum. And that somehow assumes the position of the school. But actually, within that little dynamic within that microcosm of your classroom, you have so many different cultures. And so teachers have that responsibility, that obligation to understand the cultures that are occurring in them and to promote a respect and a cultural agility so that everyone can be harmonious together. So I think that that was the first thing that brought my level of awareness to culture in the classroom, and wanting to research how can we, you know, what's a real way of developing this? I think it's probably a challenge, we all experience of looking at this soft skills and looking at these emotional sides of behavior and culture, which are hard, as we've just said, hard to pinpoint. What do we mean by this? And how do I really develop that in a classroom environment in an educational setting? So I wanted to reach out to experts in the field. And thank goodness, I found knowledge works, thank goodness, I found Marco and Shelly and the team to enlighten me into this paradigm where actually culture was seen as something that we can study, we can embrace, we can promote and understand at a level that was much more tangible and much more meaningful than I had enabled myself to envisage in the past.

Shelley Reinhart: 21:43

That's a wonderful, yes. And just tell us about your journey with knowledge works. What did you do after you were introduced to KnowledgeWorks? At

Victoria Hopkin: 21:52

first I, I did the intercultural coaching course, because part of my PhD thesis was working with Arab teachers through a coach coaching methodology. And I knew that the coaching that I had experienced the coaching I've been trained in, wasn't adapting enough to intercultural considerations, I knew that there were elements that they would give a nod to, but it was nowhere near in depth enough, it was nowhere near challenging enough, it wasn't really understanding myself as a cultural persona, and then understanding someone else's culture and understanding how I bridged that gap. So from that incredible coaching course, I just fell in love with it so much more. And I just been such a passionate follower of knowledge works, and the work and the podcasts and the blogs ever since. And just trying to constantly emulate in both my research, and also my personal and professional life, to emulate all of those spirits and methodologies that knowledge work provided for me. Wow,

Shelley Reinhart: 23:04

thank you for saying that. It's wonderful. What about you, Yasmine? How did you first get introduced to knowledge works, it's very different, different.

Yasemin Altas: 23:13

It's very different. It's very different. To be honest, I can't take any credit. It was really the college I worked for. So thankfully, we had really visionary leaders. So back then, it was the Ministry of Education was shaking her hand. And he was working closely with my director, who had been here in this country for 25 years. So he was the one who was the founder of this college with like 14 students in one classroom, you know, down in the creek area. And they've always strived for improving the students and ensuring that the next generation in the UAE is really up to, you know, world class level with their skills and their vision as well. And they will, they are the ones who really wanted to make sure that the students also are able to keep up with the mission of the country, which is to become more global and to function in this increasingly global UAE. Right, so they need the skills to be working with others in case just for people who are not very familiar with the UAE. The UAE is population right now is right now is about 10 million only 1 million of that is Emirati. So 9 million expats from all kinds of countries are here from all kinds of cultures that are here. So there's a huge emphasis on the ability to work together and have this intercultural awareness and sensitivity. And it was the college who found, knowledge works. And they developed together a program that would cater for the students needs. I was selected by my director as one of the first batches of teachers and educators to be trained as an ici practitioner. And that was the beginning of a whole journey, not only for me, but for a lot of other Mike of my colleagues. That's how I started teaching ici. And that went on for nearly a decade. Wow. And I have to say it was it was one of the most memorable, memorable and fascinating and inspiring times as a teacher for me in my professional career.

Shelley Reinhart: 26:13

And while you were teaching, so you were teaching Emirati students, you were teaching them the basics of knowledge, workss methodology, which is the three colors of worldview and 12 dimensions of culture. So you were teaching those things? Exactly. And you really enjoyed it. And you saw the impact on the students?

Yasemin Altas: 26:34

I did, because I think, you know, when I was getting trained, I had a real aha moment for myself. As I said, before, you know, all my lifelong I spent, like three decades in my life trying to find the answers to you know, who am I? Where do I belong to, where's home, all this identity and trying to understand why things are different for me, and how I could maybe adapt more to the situations I'm in. It was only within the cultural, the ICI course, that I finally had an answer that, wow, I had no idea. I'm a third culture kid. I was born, you know, in Germany, to Turkish parents, and all the feelings I was going through, has a name, I finally had a headache, had a had a category, I belonged to a category, which is like the Third Culture kid, yes. And then all the other concepts through the court that we learned throughout the course, you know, the ladder of inference, or the dimensions, etc. That was an eye opener for me. And being able to transfer this information, this experience and this passion that I finally, you know, this, this lifesaver for me, I just wanted to give that to the students. And it's been amazing, because I saw, literally, I saw those aha moments and that spike in the students so many times over and over again. And once you have that, you just want to have more, you just have to be able to create that aha moment. Because I think for me, since that time, even though I'm not teaching right now, intercultural studies to my students, it is still in my classes on a daily basis. Somehow it is integrated. Like today, I right now, I'm teaching a course called Future foresight. And only today in my class, again, I was referring back to the iceberg. And, you know, the first impressions and how we might be wrong with assumptions. And you can see this dead silence in the classroom of 24 students. And they all look at this iceberg in front of them. And you can see, it's slowly you know, they have some reflections and thinking about things. And I think, I think this course has also changed a lot for me professionally and personally. And that's why I believe it's so valuable, not just as a teacher, but I think it's a very valuable course that is necessary in a global world right now for any any profession, or even as a parent, I think to have better connections with with the people around you and your children.

Shelley Reinhart: 29:47

Yes. Yes, Victoria. You work with teachers. Right. Can you talk about how it's impacted that?

Victoria Hopkin: 29:56

Yeah, I mean, I resonate so much with what you asked me in saying so just that idea of, you know, always been so changed that actually, after you've done the knowledge works course, you can only see things through the cultural lens all of a sudden that you can't come back again. So it penetrates everything that you see think do the way you perceive other people. So just to give you an example of that, when I was with in China, I had a few colleagues who struggled with the culture struggled with what they perceived to be, you know, a difference in protocols, let's say. Whereas, the more I studied the language, and I think you're right, as me language and culture, bring you so many more insights as to why the why traditionally, some people do it this way, what it means to them to behave in this way to eat in this way to talk in this way. That actually is exactly that iceberg. Suddenly, you stop seeing what you see with your eyes, and you start to see what's much deeper, that brings such beautiful meaning. And such a beautiful appreciation of another culture that actually changes you as a person. Because you have this eye opening moment of, gosh, I'm learning so much more about you. I'm so grateful that I can see this other side because I want to. And I think it's that desire to see things differently. That is so integral. And I think, just to answer your question, Shelly, Yasmine, obviously is talking about the students. I wonder whether it's almost harder dealing with the teachers, because they're almost more stuck in their ways they've had, unfortunately, they haven't had Yes, building blocks. So they've had longer and longer setting their own mindsets, dispositions, expectations, assumptions. And coming in to get what Yasmin calls those aha moments, it can sometimes feel more of a challenge, because you're having to dig past a lot of year, year on year built assumptions and behaviors that people feel very comfortable with, especially where they're in the majority community of, well, we will behave this way. So this is the way we expect everyone to behave, and pushing them into that sense of well, let's understand. And one thing that I love, if I may, surely, that idea of yes, 12 dimensions that we all exist on here. Some of us are in this polarity. And some of us are over here, but we're all in the same dimension. And I think that that brings a lovely cohesion to everyone to understand that difference. Isn't you live on Mars and I live in, you know, Jupiter? Actually, we're all in the same place. We're just existing give

Shelley Reinhart: 32:52

an example? Like, can you give an example of a time or some of the polarities, our status and and, you know, planning and doing this any come to mind? Well, definitely,

Victoria Hopkin: 33:03

again, just to reference China, because I know you asked me and we can talk about the Arab culture in the UAE. So just to bring a different one. The one I found most interesting was that idea of what I'm looking at three colors. Now that idea of power, and how power in the Chinese culture was interesting, because again, I saw it so differently. The Chinese culture, generally speaking, students expect the authority figure as the teacher, and coming from a Western pedagogy. That's not how we are, we try and kind of create this community where everyone's equal and we can create this safe space, the teacher is a facilitator. And actually coming into that dynamic where I unnerved a lot of our Chinese students because I wasn't being the authority, standing at the front and giving them what they expected. So although I was coming in with my preferred, and my belief around preferred pedagogy, actually, I was doing a disservice to those students who didn't respond to that. So it was interesting to look at, you know, my understanding of power and response to that. And authority actually was different along that sliding scale.

Shelley Reinhart: 34:17

So important to understand how the students see the role of a teacher. How much authority does that role have? And in the West, right, it's much more distributed power and we listen to each other, we learn from each other, we share ideas in much of the world, it's not that way right?

Yasemin Altas: 34:38

Now, I'll add to that example, Victoria, you know, where, as a teacher trainer, you're always taught like when you're giving feedback, go to the level of the student be next to the students, you know, show that you are at the same level to create that bond. Whereas in, you know, in a power driven society that doesn't work. It's, it's almost like what are you doing here sitting with me. And it diminishes the respect the student then has towards the teacher, which is completely different and throws you off your balance, because you do as a teacher want to have the connection. So everything you do, and whatever you've been taught from the western point of view, is now wrong or not suitable, and you have to dealer learn, and then relearn. You know, one of the most important concepts in intercultural studies, like you have to forget what you've learned sometimes, you know, so far, and you need to be open, and re learn other concepts that are different. And that's you might not agree with that. But that's okay. It's different.

Victoria Hopkin: 36:01

It's that cultural agility to recognize in which context, do I need to behave in which way and in which connection with the whole community of the classroom? Can we create this third space, where actually we all understand each other, but we're going to collectively enter into this other zone where everyone finds what works for them, and the teacher has to show such agility to find that right balance within that community.

Shelley Reinhart: 36:27

That third cultural space, don't teachers have this unique? Responsibility and beautiful, I would say power to create their own culture. In those four walls. It's because you are the authority and you can shape the rules, you can shape how participation is viewed, you have so much power to shape the culture and in that classroom, and if you use the lit, the litmus test that we promote, you know, am is as what I'm doing in this classroom, is it honoring to all the students? Am I empowering the students? And am I doing right by them? Like, is there justice being done? And those three questions, you know, some, some teachers only focus on the justice piece or the equality piece, but there's the honoring and the empowering that also needs to? To Have you seen that? Have you seen teachers be able to create that space and be culturally agile and recognize their other worldviews in the room that they need to adapt to?

Victoria Hopkin: 37:34

I think that's a really big journey. And I echo what you say, Shelley, I think you use the word power. And I would say, Absolutely, and with every great power comes great responsibility. And I feel as though every teacher has a huge responsibility to create that, to be aware of that, and to never take their eye off the ball of the litmus test of where are we today? Because one new behavior, one new addition, you know, we're talking about the transience of some educational settings, one new addition can completely throw that into a different domain. So it's constantly evaluating where you are. I have seen teachers delving into that space. Unfortunately, from my experience, teachers are busy, teachers are overwhelmed. Teachers feel like, I understand that this is important, but I don't have time to always prioritize it. And my argument is always you don't have time not to, if you don't create this, from what you were saying, Surely that litmus test of those three elements, creates a psychological safety. And until you have that, what learning can occur that's going to be as meaningful or as productive if the students don't feel that that has been created for them?

Shelley Reinhart: 38:55

Yes, I think that is the teacher's responsibility to create that. Yeah, Yasmine, what about you? I mean, have you seen that and it sounds like you create that in your classroom?

Yasemin Altas: 39:12

I think I mean, I do feel that the students walk in the class with quite a comfort that they can't find always in the other classes and they say that as well. And that is purely because I'm trying to respect that you know, mutual respect and hearing them and honoring what they actually want, and how they would like to I would like this the classroom, atmosphere to be so by honoring their feelings and their, their perspectives, I'm able to create this classroom where you know this It's an open learning environment, and the students are really comfortable talking about very personal things sometimes. You know, disturbingly personal, I would say disturbing, because there are a lot of stories that are happening within, you know, their lives and their, their families that they don't necessarily have an outlet to talk about these things, and then they, they will be able to talk about this in the classrooms. Going back to the 12 dimensions that Victoria has set, you know, you give the example of power, I'm gonna give just a very small example of like, time, right? Where if you have the policies of, you have to be on time, if you're 10 minutes late, you're being marked absent, you know, we're talking about school and college rules and regulations. So applying these as a teacher, you have to be really careful, because, yes, I need to apply the college policies. But in a culture, where time, and the understanding of the, you know, the dimension of time is not at the same dimension that you have. So my students, you know, they tend to be late, quite a lot. And at the beginning, you know, they would come in late, and if you as a teacher, you know, have this threatening attitude of like, okay, you're late, I'm gonna make you absent. I said, Why are you making me absent while you're late? That's the rule. I'm going by the book, you know, and guilt and innocence. Yeah, so the world view is going with that. So if you are insisting, and without explaining the student, what's going on, there's going to be a clash. And that is going to affect the whole, you know, learning environment with your students. So at the beginning, I was trying to do that, and then I realized, they hate me, and it's not going anywhere, and I don't like this electricity in the air with the students, right? huffing and puffing. So I thought, okay, you know, what do I need to do and try to understand the culture and their dimension and their approach, which is more people oriented. So trying to understand where they come from, helped me to really change my approach. So this time, I would say, look, you're coming late. And by talking about honor, which is so important in culture, by going back to their worldview, and say, Look, if I you, for those listeners who don't know what it means, it's basically it's a shame, it's a shame we have started the class, it's a shame that you're late. It's a shame that you have your teacher wait for you come in, it's disrespectful, it's a shame, etc, you're taking away the right of the other students in the classroom. This is, it's a shame. That's what they understand. And their face has changed. And tilaka this, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, Paula, I will not be late. And then you laugh about it, it's okay. Don't be like next time. And then you laugh. And then suddenly beautiful, that little rule that could create so much headache for you. Because becomes an agreed rule in the classroom than based on you know, another dimension, not necessarily, you know, punishment, and I'm gonna mark your absence. So it's very important. I mean, we're talking about education. But I think, as I said, these dimensions and understanding these dimensions and the worldviews and trying to then readapt your reaction based on the culture you're dealing with, is going to help you build much more better relationships and you know, much more fruitful relationships as well. And that will open up so many doors have amazing stories that you can certainly share with the people around

Shelley Reinhart: 44:28

you. And that is the essence of intercultural agility. Like what you just shared. I mean, that's, that's us. That's an example of, of a teacher adapting paying attention. How do they view tardiness? How is it different than my own? How can I adjust and adapt to speak their language, so to speak? Yeah. And, oh, that's just yeah, thank you for sharing that example. That's a great example. Thank you. And each each of those little things every time we do that, it's creating that third cultural space. And one thing I talk about in culture in the classroom, the course that I've, that I've taught is that I try to encourage teachers to create a classroom charter. Were at the beginning of the of the year, you discuss these things with your students with with understanding that you're the you're the authority, but you talk about how do we create trust? How can we create trust that when you walk in these four walls, we trust each other? You trust me, I trust you? What does that look like? How do we celebrate your accomplishments? And then how do I hold you accountable? When you don't follow through? What does that look like? And that's going to look different in honor, shame, it's gonna look different for someone in this skill, and it's gonna look different for someone who's used to a power for your classroom. It's, it's, like, very tricky to navigate. For when you talk about it, and you get them thinking about it. It's just, it's, it works. You know, it's, it's really

Victoria Hopkin: 46:13

nice. It's so important to empower them to say, not only do we want you to identify your cultural, you don't even need to say the cultural part. But you know, how would you want me to praise you? How does this work for you, you enable them to be metacognitive, about all of those things that they themselves are internalizing? Oh, I've never really thought about, I take it for granted that you would do this and I respond, but actually empowering them to think about their own makeup, as we were saying at the very beginning, we're all uniquely wired and actually enabling them to think through that with someone of trust to create this environment is, you know, electrifying, isn't it?

Shelley Reinhart: 46:58

I love that. Yes. Yes. Yes. One thing I want each I'd love you to to share, is, what are you? What work are you doing for your PhDs? And what are your goals for your future in education? If you were to just dream? What would that look like? And how does intercultural agility kind of play a role in that? So Victoria, can you can you go first,

Victoria Hopkin: 47:25

of course, so mine. So my PhD is looking at KOAT, intercultural coaching, specifically with Arab teachers working with an international school setting, because this is the UAE, we are in this beautiful host country. And yet, we typically, in a lot of the schools that I've worked in impose a Western centric approach mindset pedagogy. And what I'm wanting to do is work with, you know, Western is such a broad term, but for ease, we use that word Western Western leaders to understand their Arab colleagues, to understand the Arab approach to teaching and learning, and to build, you know, third cultural space for these teachers and leaders to exist and to communicate, because, as he asked me, and so beautifully put it, you know, there's a way of working with the students to create that magic. But actually, these are two colleagues who are at senior levels, but who don't always see assessment or, you know, timings of getting these next things done, or the way that you're evaluating a lesson. There's no shared understanding from my experience that is adequate to make that relationship fruitful. So my work through my PhD study is to look at how can we build a culture of coaching with Arab staff and Western leaders to bridge that gap and create a mutual space of understanding and trust in which that development of learning can occur?

Shelley Reinhart: 49:13

Oh, wow, that's profound work. Oh, I hope that that just makes such an impact. So

Victoria Hopkin: 49:19

do I Shelly, I can't begin to tell you how.

Shelley Reinhart: 49:25

We are cheerleaders that that is such a good work. Wow. What about you,

Yasemin Altas: 49:31

they're even very important as well. I feel quite inspired. Maybe I should change my topic. I'm actually quite at the beginning of my studies. I'm still at the Explore exploration stage, let's say, but my focus is to culture. Adults. Having come from this background and in a personal interest and Especially I want to focus on concepts of the 12 dimensions, you know, like concepts of the of identity. Where do I belong to? How do they make career choice? So my focus is students, but specifically it's Emirati students who have an Emirati father and a nun Emirati mother. And the reason I chose this was because Emirati father's here, of course, you know, being being the patriarch of the family, it has huge effects on the children. And the reason why I'm wanting to look at none, you know, Emirati moms, is I want to see the different perspectives of, you know, not necessarily Muslim, but also not Muslim, not Emirati, and how that affects today's generation here in the UAE. And the aim for the aim in doing this is basically, I would like to say, what, what if what affects the students in their career choices for exam. And these are where the dimensions come in terms of, you know, the status and the power, the destiny? Is it directed, directed, etc, all of these ideas, in order to better understand the makeup right now with the students that we have. And things are changing all the time. When I first came, about 10 years ago, when I first started teaching ice I used to ask in the classroom, you know, who is the third culture kid after a long introduction, raise your hand if you are a suit culture, child. And no one would raise their hand, even though physically from the physical features, you definitely see genetically, there is some, you know, other influence. And the students would not say it, I would ask, Do you have a nun Emirati person in your family, maybe somebody got married to someone, nobody would raise their hand, it was such a I don't want to say taboo. But it was a topic that they were not comfortable talking about, because they were possibly also afraid of certain stigmas coming along with that. But now 10 years later, I asked the same question in the class. And the students without hesitation, raise their hand and proudly can say yes, you know, my mom, is this or my Dad, is this etc. So they own their diversity beautifully, which I think is, is great. It's, it's empowering for them. And I want to see how this is affecting other aspects such as career choice, and where they see themselves, especially as a role, you know, in their role as a female? Yeah, so I'm exploring that. But I'm,

Shelley Reinhart: 53:33

I'm still fascinating.

Yasemin Altas: 53:34

I have to say I'm still at the beginning. I'm wiggling around with some of the ideas. And Victoria, maybe you can give me some ideas

Shelley Reinhart: 53:41

I love. So basically, you're saying that those, there's students are raised in an intercultural home. So they could have very different cultural worldviews just from their mother and father, that that would be possible. And then how do they how does that impact them individually and future choices? Is that right? Yeah. Well, that's basket Exactly.

Yasemin Altas: 54:08

Because the assumption is generally no, we shouldn't assume we that's one thing we learn in this Yeah.

Shelley Reinhart: 54:19

We never assume

Yasemin Altas: 54:21

assumption is that, you know, that the students like Emirati students are out students, you know, they grow up in certain ways with the influence of their identity and religion, etc. But, you know, once you open that Lily door, and you are having a glimpse into family backgrounds, it's so diverse. It's immensely diverse. And the students there's so many students who are very much To be able to balance this, you know, this these two worlds basically. And it's also interesting to see how in their families, they, they, they see that they see the differences play out between mom and dad. Yeah, I have a student, for example, you know, during COVID, that was fascinating for me. So she's super sweet girl, super sweet, super smart. And her mom is Russian and her dad is Emirati. And during COVID, you know, when we had to, you know, compound, go with the rules, and we had to go vaccinations, etc. She, her mom didn't want her to get vaccinated. But her dad wanted her to get vaccinated, and the mom doesn't want to and the child is in between and the child has to get vaccinated. Otherwise, you can't do you know, go, you can't do anything. And you're not allowed on campus if you're not vaccinated. So, and I and I ran into them in IKEA in festival city with the mom. And the mom was like, outspoken. And she talked to me lovely woman and, and you can see this different, you know, this diversity how this child is balancing, you know, the relationship between her mum and her dad and but trying to exist as an individual in between those two, and trying to try to, you know, have them, make them aware that she also has a voice and that voice needs to be heard. It's very interesting. So I'm interested in these areas. Yeah, that's such

Shelley Reinhart: 56:57

such good work. My friend Chris O'Shaughnessy, is an expert in Third Culture, kids. And he uses the picture of a hallway he calls them children of the hallway. Because so if they're standing in a hallway, one room is say they have an honor, shame culture at home, primarily. And then they go to school, and it's much more innocent skilled, that Western kind of pedagogy, and then their friends are from all over the world. And they have their own mix of all three worldviews, and they go from room to room. But they kind of live in the hallway. Because

Yasemin Altas: 57:32

that's a beautiful Methodist.

Shelley Reinhart: 57:33

I love it. Every time I share a certain culture. Yeah. And he also says the Third Culture, kids find each other. It's uncanny. Like, hallway kids find other hallway kids, because it's such a unique experience. And it transcends culture. So you'll find Third Culture, kids form their own little group, because they've experienced that life in the hallway. And somebody who doesn't know that. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah,

Yasemin Altas: 58:03

there's, there's a lot of research, backing up that idea that third culture, kids wherever they go, like a magnet, they actually find each other. Yeah, because that's their comfort zone. That's where they feel comfortable. Because as you said, All the others in that hallway have experienced the same Yes. So you, you know, you become this little clique. And it's your comfort zone, because you know that the other person has gone through that as a friend of mine right now her son. They're Syrian, but he was, you know, brought up here in the UAE for for many years. He's gone to Germany, to study electronics in Munich, lovely guy, and were quite worried about the environment, is he going to have friends, etc. And at the beginning, he says, Yeah, I feel a bit strange. My language is not very well. I don't know if I liked this place or not. Three months later, literally, he came back. Yep. I'm staying here. I love it. And we said, like, why your friends? And then it was, I don't know, somebody for a girl from Brazil. Another guy, exactly. Another guy from this. They they established that little group of, you know, little United Colors in Munich, in that in that in that department, and they all found each other and they hang out together and they cook together. And now they said that the the other members in the classrooms you know that the mono culture, like the German students would say, Oh, this is so interesting. Can we join you? You know, what are you eating? What is that? So now They have become almost this tool or this movement to create like ripple effects. Now they have become the center of change in their own classes. And that ripple effect is now going on and, you know, five years with these people together and the students together is going to make a huge effect on the others.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:00:27

And I think Third Culture, kids have the ability and the potential to impact the world in that way to show us to show us intercultural agility, because they do it every day, they live in different rooms, they, you know,

Victoria Hopkin: 1:00:42

and they also have that resilience, don't they, because they've had to be resilient in that hallway living have a little bit, you know, one foot in here, one foot back here, and that actually, that they can show that to others that they celebrate everyone, they don't have a preference of this, or that they just accept and are excited by this new food, this word, this approach this, you know, way of living, that actually emanates this adventure, especially at university life, you know, it's fun to just get on board and learn from others, which is such a powerful mindset to bring to a community. open mindedness.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:01:21

Yes, curiosity. That's not Yeah,

Yasemin Altas: 1:01:24

yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can, I have to also add, it's not always an easy task as a third culture kid. Yeah, you know, to have this, to have this downside, let's say patience, or it goes both ways. You know, I see that in my relationship. My husband is, you know, British, as you saw. So, even within relationships, you know, like, where as a third culture, you're so used to go from one room to the other room, when it BAM, in out and you adapt so quickly, without knowing I adapt accordingly. And I'm not even aware that I'm doing that so fast. And when you forget, sometimes that other people are not as agile and longer, and they need some tools, they need a little bit more guidance. Definitely patience, but also guidance. And that frustration, I can see that sometimes, you know, like, not being able to keep up with that fast pace, that agility can be sometimes frustrating on both sides, you know, where my part my husband would be like, I don't understand, what are you saying? Where it would be, you know, slow down, I don't get it. What is it that you know, one thing at a time could be a man's thing, I don't know. It's as a as a third culture, kid. You know, you do things quickly, and you are able to adapt quickly to a situation. And if, let's say, as an educator, if you are working with other people, you need to realize that you need to have the patience to allow others to develop that agility. Even if it's not at the same pace as yours right now. It's a skill. Well, I mean, it's a skill, right? It's a skill set that really has to be taught and practiced over and over and over again,

Victoria Hopkin: 1:03:54

I think that's such an important point. Yes, mean that the thing that we focus on is the third culture kids, but actually, it's their natural adaptability, their natural agility is then sometimes confronted with people who are fixed mindsets who are monoculture like I was in my growing up, that actually been with me. Yeah. And it can it can be odd for the Third Culture kids to see people that are so single minded, fixed mindset. And actually, they have to learn a new, you know, string to their bow to be able to adapt to how do I penetrate you? How do I get over there with you, being very closed minded compared to my exposure to a lot of different cultures? And I think, yes, that definitely resonates in the classrooms that I've worked when with with teachers, that they've been so long in their mentality in this space. As you were saying, Surely, this is the classroom rule. This is what we do. I set the tone for what this year will bring. And actually when the Kids who are the Third Culture kids come with that heightened sense of cultural agility. The teachers who sometimes feel perhaps surprised or on the backfoot of, they're not ready to enter into that. So it can be a real kind of tug of war, I suppose to get that balance. Right. Thank you for bringing it up. Yes, man. It's a great point. I think

Shelley Reinhart: 1:05:25

that is, well, we have, we have come to the end of our time. And it is of course, I could talk to you both for hours more. Thank you so much for your insights and your wisdom and the things that you've shared today. I just, I hope everyone listening to this podcast is encouraged and, and wants to be interculturally agile the way that you too are.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:05:49

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the cultural agility podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. Best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast, app or channel or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. As always, if any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you, you will find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about intercultural intelligence and how you can become more culturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledge works.com Special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole knowledge works team for making this podcast a success. Thank you Anita Rodriquez, Ara as is back Ian Raji Suraj and thanks to VIP and George for audio production, Roslyn Mirage for scheduling, and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast