Marco Blankenburgh: 0:00

And this has really come to the surface since Covid started, more and more people are starting to realize how important relational capital, relational strength, collective relational strength is on a team. Because what we saw is that teams who had a strong and healthy relational fabric, Before COVID started, they held together teams that didn't have that, they started to disintegrate much faster. So relational capital is back. And um, when you think about it, building relational strength or relational capital requires me to un first of all understand myself and understand you. So, That's who I am as an emotional human being, as a, as a psychological human being. So personality, behavioral style, but also as a, as a cultural human being. Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenberg, international director of KnowledgeWorks, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex.

Shelley Reinhart: 1:31

Hello everyone. Welcome to our KnowledgeWorks podcast. I'm here with my second time with Marco Blankenberg. So excited to be here with him today to talk about the concept of trust, what it is and how it affects us, and.. Really looking forward to talking about it in an intercultural conversation. So welcome Marco. Thanks for being here.

Marco Blankenburgh: 1:55

Thank you so much. I'm very much looking forward to, uh, this important topic that we're gonna be discussing today.

Shelley Reinhart: 2:02

Mm-hmm. Me too. Me too. So let's just jump right in. What I'd love. To first talk about is what is trust and am I correct in thinking that that's not an easy question to answer?

Marco Blankenburgh: 2:17

Oh man, there's so many angles she could go with that. So the simplest way I like to explain it, trust is like a bank account. So when you are with one or more people, you hopefully will behave in such. that you can deposit into the bank account, uh, which means typically that the other person perceives your words, your actions as trust building. But you can also get into situations where people feel that my words, my behaviors are breaking trust or diminishing it, and then people remove it from the bank account, which then also leads to the second thing is that trust is. Based on behavior, the way I behave, the words I use either build trust or they break trust. It's also a belief, so I believe I can trust dot, dot, dot, and there's many different categories that we consciously or subconsciously use in our head for that. It can also be just a gut feeling. I feel good about this other. So it can be even spiritual. Can some people say my sixth sense or sometimes a gut feeling is not really a feeling. It's much more elusive than that, and a lot of people have tried to explain trust from a neurological point of view. So there's a lot to say about trust and how it works in the brain, and which chemistry is unleashed and which hormones, et cetera, et cetera. So as you, as you notice, not easy to answer that it's contextual. Yeah. Uh, it, it, uh, it is also, that's a fascinating one that I've seen that we talk a lot about in, in intercultural setting. Trust is directly linked to. The memory of my senses. Oh. Which is fascinating. It's really, I mean, the strongest one, you know, the senses. So, uh, sight, uh, audible memory, uh, touch, taste, and smell. The interesting one is, smell has the strongest impact on triggering, uh, memories. And when it comes to trust, memories of trusting or distrust. So, you know, smells from even when you were a little. They either trigger trust or they trigger distrust. Wow. And of course, it's cultural as well. Uh, so huge body of research as well, and trust across cultures. And then the last thing is it's influenced by personality. So some people, just from a personality point of view, they, they are much more likely to deposit trust in that bank account upfront. And other people, they say, Hmm, I'll wait and. Uh, I'm gonna work with you for a little while and then I might deposit into the bank account. So yeah, there is, what is that? There's about nine or 10 different things. Yeah. In some, in some way. Yeah. So I don't have a fancy academic trust definition, but those are the things that I, I always see at play when, when I'm working with people on the topic of trust.

Shelley Reinhart: 5:22

So I was taking some notes. So it's a behavior, it's a. It's a gut feeling. It affects us neurologically and it affects the memory and our, and our senses and it's cultural. Wow. That's a lot of things. Um, what are some common things that you hear people say about trust?

Marco Blankenburgh: 5:44

Because trust is such, um, it's sort of, you grow up with a certain context in which trust is done in a certain way that we don't always have to deeply think about it, but. We only start to deeply think about it when we leave that context and then all of a sudden we realize how little we actually know about trust and how little we know and how it works. So, um, that's why people either they brush it off and they say, oh, this is so fluffy and intangible. that, uh, we'll never figure it out. Um, and it is in the one, on the one hand is fluffy and intangible, but on the other hand, it can be also discussed in a very structured manner. And you can actually, as a group or as two individuals, you can come up with very practical, tangible things you want to do together and you want to avoid together in order to keep building up that trust bank account. Some people say that, and this is a, a bit of a contentious one, that, uh, trust has to be, has to be ignited or kickstarted through vulnerability. And, um, I hear a lot of people speak about that. Also, quite a few famous authors and, and speakers. Um, and what we have found is that, Can start in many different ways, and that is especially across cultures. So I don't necessarily want to dig into it now, but, uh, maybe we can do that as we progress, as we continue the conversation, but mm-hmm., um, trust can start in many ways. Why is that? Well, there are cultures where people are more likely to give trust upfront. So a phrase in English, the benefit of the doubt. Mm-hmm. is typically linked to, I deposit early, sometimes so early that you haven't done anything. You know, you're my new colleague and we get introduced and I decide to deposit trust into our relational bank account. And if you live up to it, I'll keep depositing. Uh, but other cultures are much more on the, on the earned side of trust. So it's like, like two opposites. So some culture more on the given side of trust give up front other cultures more on the earned side of trust. So the way you'd then earn trust in those cultures can, can vary significantly. Hmm. So, ba back to this idea that trust had to start through vulnerability. That is a, a very tricky thing to say. And also if you try it, I've seen people try it, then it doesn't work, especially in an intercultural environ. Uh, and the last thing I wanna say is that very often the way we talk about trust, so I, I just use for instance, the English phrase, the benefit of the doubt. There is a whole bunch of ways that we get ingrained with thinking about trust, and there's a lot of sayings about trust for. So one that I've hear, hear people quote is, uh, trust take many years to build, a few seconds to break and forever to repair. I've heard that one . Yeah. And, and, and I know what people are trying to say, but it's not necessarily true. There is a lot more hope when it comes to trust. Shelley Reinhart: Yes. Uh, thank goodness. Yeah. So, um, let me see what, what would another one would. He, uh, this is a Chinese saying, um, so he who does not trust enough, will not be trust. Hmm. So, so that idea of earned versus given trust, there is apparently, there is a, a, a unique middle road and every culture defines that in a different way. So this Chinese saying is trying to say, you can't be a hundred percent on the earned side of trust because he who does not trust enough, will not be trusted. So you have to deposit at least some. But then when you start talking to different cultures about how. And some cultures say nothing, and another culture say, well, 80, 90, maybe a hundred percent. So yeah. So there's a lot of ideas that we have about trust and we bring those into a group of people.. And if we don't know how to talk about those, those things, then all our ideas and misconceptions about trust start living their own life. And then when there is conflict or miscommunication, then they, these volcanoes start to erupt. Hmm.

Shelley Reinhart: 10:13

So you're saying that trust, the earned or given piece of trust is a big factor and it's how much you give of each in the bank account? In the, in the trust.. Yeah. Just to sum up, is that kind of what you're saying?

Marco Blankenburgh: 10:26

Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely.

Shelley Reinhart: 10:28

That's really helpful. That's really helpful. Is a good picture, good way to see it. So if that's true, what does trust look like? Let's, let's go really big picture. What does trust look like at a macro level, like in society and institutions, and how does that impact us?

Marco Blankenburgh: 10:47

Yeah. I love that, uh, that question because. Trust is, you know it between two people, me and you, but it definitely is true at a societal level. So there's some cool research out there. Um, for instance, Ipsos does the research on which jobs people perceive us as trustworthy people in those jobs. So, for instance, uh, the latest one, uh, they just did one. Let me see. It was like, yeah, this year, 28 countries were involved. The people in those countries perceive doctors, scientists, and teachers as the most trustworthy profession or the people in those professions. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And, uh, given the world that we live in, , uh, the, the peop the lowest uh, rated jobs and people in those jobs are advertising executives, government ministers, and politicians in.

Shelley Reinhart: 11:43

That makes sense. Yeah., I can see that. Marco Blankenburgh: So, perceptions about people in certain jobs and, you know, watch out for so-and-so. Oh, but if so-and-so says it is a scientist for, for instance, then you can trust them. But there is also, there's a very interesting link between the amount of trust in society. And the prosperity of the nation. So for instance, um, there is, uh, great research done by the Lagarto Institute. They produce the prosperity index every year, and in the factors that they look at, um, trust is woven into the fact fabric of those factors. And, um, when you look at a, a nation where there is a lot of trust, Then typically things start flowing. Ideas start flowing. Education is typically pursued more. There's more stability at a neighborhood, town, city level, but also trades starts to grow. So, and, and, and what you also see with, when you look at the, for instance, prosperity index, if there is trust, it's easier to get things. Paperwork becomes easier. So registering a business, for instance, becomes easier, but then it also spills over across borders. So if there is trust between two countries, for instance, then those countries are more likely to have healthy trade agreements. If there is distrust between two countries, then they start to announce all kinds of limitations. And you can see that in the world that we live in right now, especially at the superpower level, for instance, and, uh, you just look, for instance, at the amount of, uh, trade limiting legislation that has been passed in the last two years, it's, it has skyrocketed and it's a sign that there is lack of trust between countries. So the other, the last thing I wanna mention on that point is that, uh, inter-regional trade, Is directly cor correlated with the amount of trust between the countries in that region. And you can look at different regions around the world where people say, uh, why did you buy, um, your groceries from this, uh, produced in this country and not in this other country? And then people typically start saying things like, ah, but I can't trust their manufacturing, or I can't trust their agriculture. I mean, they, they, uh, they cheat, uh, with fertilizers or with pesticides, so I'm not buying my groceries from there. Interesting. So that cross-regional trade even is directly impacted, uh, by how much trust there is between countries. Wow. Trust really matters on all those levels. Yeah, absolutely.

Marco Blankenburgh: 14:33

Mm.

Shelley Reinhart: 14:34

Wow. And so, There's that big picture where trust affects us on that level. Let's zoom in on how a lack of trust impacts on an individual level. So, well, first of all, you had mentioned neurological, how it affects us neurologically., does a lack of trust effects affect an individual from an neurological point of view?

Marco Blankenburgh: 14:58

Absolutely. Now, I, I'm not a neuroscientist, I just love it because as an interculturalist, uh, the neuroscience sometimes explains just from another angle what's really going on between people who don't understand each other and who might culturally not be on the same wavelength. So I love the subject, but, uh, so the main trust hormone is oxytocin and, uh, Um, oxytocin has a huge function in, uh, human relationships already starting with the birth of a baby and the bonding between mother and child. And it's beautiful to watch how trust then, um, creates that deep bond and, uh, what trust does in many adults, you know, in, in work relationships. It makes us feel relaxed. It makes us feel comfortable. It allows us to open up. We start sharing things. We become more transparent. Mm-hmm., we feel safe. Another interesting thing is if we, if there is trust between us, we, we are much clearer in our thinking and, uh, as a result of that, creativity starts to flow. The, uh, the opposite is true, that if there is distrust, the first thing that happens is there's a bunch of neuro peptides, they call them, um, little chemicals that get shot into the bloodstream. When we distrust those chemicals start to cloud our thinking.. So we don't think clearly. And, uh, psychologists call that brain, brain fog, not, not the, uh, covid version of brain fog, but mm-hmm. brain fog because of, because of distrust. So as soon as that happens, I become more guarded. Uh, I've become more suspicious of the other person, and as a result, I'm very selective in the information I share. So creativity, innovation then becomes a lot more difficult. Wow.

Shelley Reinhart: 16:48

I did not know that. That is fascinating. So it even affects our brain chemistry.

Marco Blankenburgh: 16:54

Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Gosh. That's why it's, yeah, that's why it's so important that, that we, we figure out how to create trust, um, in the best possible way between people. Cuz things just start flowing. It's so much more beautiful if there is trust between us,

Shelley Reinhart: 17:15

so as, as flowing as easily as country to country. and community to community as well as individual to individual. Wow.

Marco Blankenburgh: 17:24

Absolutely. Yeah.

Shelley Reinhart: 17:26

So how does trust affect us, say in our workplaces or, you know, in faith communities or in, in our group settings? Mm-hmm., how does it impact us there?. Yeah. A lack of trust.

Marco Blankenburgh: 17:38

Yeah. In big ways. So when you think about what I just explained on the, from a neurological point of view, if you are in a, in a less trusting environment and you feel uncomfortable with your colleagues, you feel you can't really share information, you're guarded with sharing feelings. As a result, problem solving becomes really, So you, and also you might get, uh, clusters of people that trust each other a little bit more, but then those groups, uh, almost like corporate tribes, they form and then people don't Oh, yeah. People don't share information without another. Between those, and very often what we see is that it spirals into toxicity. Uh, so it creates actually a toxic culture over time. It spirals down, um, and very often trust then then results in people leaving. So either they first leave on the job, so they start to withdraw. They become what I call minimalists. They do the minimum to keep their pay . Yeah. Yeah. And they start to just keep their head down. That's another phrase that you don't often hear in those situations. Mm-hmm. and uh, eventually, Those who can find another job, they, they will leave or who can afford to not work for a while. And, uh, that also then has side effect because those that then eventually stay and stay and say they are then getting the brunt of that as the culture spirals downward. And some people, they, uh, they talk even about, um, When there is a lot of change in the organization and it gets really difficult and people just get exhausted from all the change, they can't, they feel they can't trust the organization anymore. Uh, one of my friends, uh, who's been in change management for more than 25 years, he, he talks about how, how it creates a traumatized workforce. Oh wow. There's so much change in the system. You can't really trust the company. They say one thing the next and the next they say something else. So there's a drop of morale, trust drops, productivity drops, um, innovation, what I just talked about, typically stress goes up as well. So adrenaline, cortisol start to act up and, um, all these things can, can then have a negative.

Shelley Reinhart: 20:02

Have you heard of the quiet quitting sort of a buzzword now?

Marco Blankenburgh: 20:08

Uh, no. Not in that, in that way. Please explain to me,. Shelley Reinhart: Well, what you're saying. It's that, so you're saying that trust impacts how I feel in my job, how I'm relating in my job in such a way that I could actually leave because of a lack of trust? Absolutely. Well, Wow.

Shelley Reinhart: 20:28

Gosh. Um, that's, that's huge.

Marco Blankenburgh: 20:31

Yeah. Gallup just did, uh, a new survey on, uh, the, the situation in the workplace, their 2022 survey highly recommended. And they also discovered that in certain parts of the world, um, up to two thirds of the people indicated that if they had a chance to leave, they would leave their current employer.

Shelley Reinhart: 20:54

And that's very alarming, a huge number.

Marco Blankenburgh: 20:57

Yeah. Two thirds. Yeah. It's not everywhere. Not in every sector of the world, but, right. I, I was, I was really shocked when I saw those numbers cuz it indicates people are, are unhappy, they don't trust their current employment situation. They don't, they don't feel they're fully engaged and uh, they were looking for something else.

Shelley Reinhart: 21:16

So it could indicate that not only do we. as bosses, as coworkers, we don't understand what trust is and we don't understand the impact trust can have because if we did, we'd be focusing a lot more on how to build it, how to make a positive trust environment. So I mean, so yes, that's how trust, the lack of trust affects us, but how do we build it? Mm-hmm., how do I as a boss or a coworker, build trust? and what are the efen, you know, the essentials of trust.. Marco Blankenburgh: Yeah. It's so important, but also sometimes hard to sell, especially in a world where we are, um, we are struggling to, uh, meet performance targets certain sectors Yeah. Are really struggling. Mm-hmm. and it's so easy. Then say, let's focus on the, on the performance targets, and it's like a chicken or the egg. Focusing on the performance ERs then makes you drop the ball on the human side of the equation. Yes. Um, I see that. So it, it's like two sides of the same coin. So on the one hand, we need to pursue, uh, transactional performance excellence. On the other hand, we need to pursue relational excellence now. Some people claim, you know, as long as we meet our performance targets, we will be okay. You know, my work, I, I am just passionate about allow, creating places where people thrive. Creating that third cultural space, because I know from experience if, if you can achieve that, people will perform. Yes. And it's not as black and white as I just stated it, but, Learning to, to do both sides well, the relational side and the transactional, you know, KPIs, KPI side of the equation is really one of the, the starting points. And um, you can't just say, we'll do one of them and we'll forget about the other one for a little while cuz then. It always le leads to, uh, a drop in performance and people start to leave. People feel unhappy, engagement goes down, et cetera. I see that. Yeah. So if I'm, if I'm going to trust, say that I, I, you know, I'm a manager, how do I build it? How do I build trust on my team?, how do I do it? How do I structure conversations around it?

Marco Blankenburgh: 23:36

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so in our, in our work on, on developing high performing intercultural teams, this is a very, very important conversation and a very significant question because, you know what we just discussed? We, we do need to think much more deeply. In, in a much more structured manner about trust and doing that in an intercultural environment. What we have found is that, um, there are key conversations to be had that allow us. To, to really grab hold of what do we as a group or as two individuals or as a team, what do we need to do be from a behavioral point of view to build a trusting environment. So, mm, yes. And tell me, tell me . So we even talk about it from a, from a, we call it merit-based trust because merit, the idea, merit trust. We, we agree on pursuing certain behaviors together. We are clear that those behaviors interculturally resonate with all team members and we start pursuing them, and then that merit-based trust starts to grow because we've agreed to go forward in a certain way. We've agreed to avoid certain behaviors. Collectively pursue it. And we see it, we see it grow, we see it come alive, and that's what we're trying to do with teams. So it, it, it, it's not really rocket science, but it's, first of all, I think I had to recognize myself that when it comes to, in the cultural trust, I really knew very little. At the start, and I like, I like to start with that. When I work with leaders, for instance, it's like we don't really know much about trust, especially not trust with the cocktail, the beautiful mix of people that you have on your team. So let's. Open up the conversation in such a way that every everybody can be part of it. Everybody feels safe to start expressing what's important for them. And then we structure the conversation around four words. So we, we've realized that there are four words when you start listening to people that always come up as trust builders or trust breakers. So reliability is probably the easiest one to identify. I promise something I don't do. You withdraw from our trust bank account. If I promise, if I promise something and I do it, you deposit in the trust bank account.

Shelley Reinhart: 26:08

And that's, that's okay. That's reliability.

Marco Blankenburgh: 26:11

Okay. Yeah. So that's one conversation to be had.

Shelley Reinhart: 26:13

That makes sense. Mm-hmm.

Marco Blankenburgh: 26:15

and the way I see reliability, what's the top, the top three on my show me reliability list is probably different from my, my teammates. So let's explore what that looks. Um, and then another one has to do with honesty. So what type of honesty is gonna be helpful for us? What type of honesty is not so helpful for us? And interesting thing about that, I come from the Netherlands, so I thought all forms of honesty are helpful., mm-hmm.. And you ask me a question, I give you an honest answer. Uh, but sometimes those honest answers are not so helpful, uh, because different cultures deal with questions and answers in different ways or with sharing opinions. Space. So then the packaging of those ideas and those opinions has to be considered. So on an intercultural team, um, honesty, really, it actually starts inside of me. It starts with, I'm having a conversation with a con colleague. Am I honestly present with you? And that idea of of, of, uh, honoring each other, um, being fully present in a conversation. And that's sort of the inner state of, of honesty. Do I, do I create that type of an engagement with you and, and especially in an intercultural situation, people feel that. So what does that look? Do we, do we easily get distracted? Is it okay for us to, uh, when my phone gives me a ping, I stop our conversation, I pick up my phone. Or is that disrespectful? Or in some cultures, people say, yeah, that's perfectly fine. I don't have a problem with that. So reliability and then honesty. Another one is respect. So I've heard people say on, on intercultural teams, well, as long as we all respect each other. Yes, but what is respect? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. How do you define it? Yeah. There's so many ways to show respect to each other. Like, I, I heard it two weeks ago. I, I've heard this multiple times over the years, but two weeks ago, somebody else mentioned it again and said, well, on our team, we had a gentleman join the team. And, um, he, he des he, in his culture, it was perfectly fine to come in, in the, into the office in the morning to acknowledge your co. In the morning, but once you've done that, you're done. You don't have to, you know when you do, when you walk past their offers or you see them in the canteen? Mm-hmm., you don't have to acknowledge them again. And he was offending hi his colleagues because he wasn't showing respect because a lot of his colleagues, as soon as you drift in physically into each other's space, you acknowledge each., yes. And you say hi and say, how are you doing? Uhhuh, , et cetera. And if you have to do that 20 times a day, you do it 20 times a day. Yes, you do. Right? So there are so many ways to show respect that uh, if you don't start a conversation about that, then uh, you are gonna get yourself into trouble. And this goes all the way into confidentiality., um, um, morality, so accepting each other's ways of looking at morals and values and ethics, um, but also respecting, uh, um, when things are shared in private. It's not just conf, you know, corporate or organizational confidentiality, but also just conversations between colleagues. Uh, how do you show respect by. Not sharing information that your colleague doesn't want to have shared. So gets into gossip. Gets into gossip, for instance. You know, it's fascinating on teams when it comes to the topic of respect, I would say eight of out of 10 teams. Gossip always comes up. Really? Yeah. Gossip is one of the best ways to destroy trust on a team. And, and that's, I find now that it's across cultures. Um, so learning to show respect with information, uh, especially if it's privileged information between colleagues is incredibly important. And then the last one, um, has to do with openness. So, I think the main things there is how, how do we share, uh, feedback with one another, for instance. So, okay.

Shelley Reinhart: 30:41

That's what openness is, is sharing feedback.

Marco Blankenburgh: 30:43

It's being open to being, being, uh, mentored, for instance, uh mm-hmm., as in how can I improve what I do? Am I, oh yeah, am I open to that? Am I open to receiving and giving feedback? But then your job's not done yet. You might say, yeah, I'm fine with that, but then how do you package. So that idea of appropriate openness in an intercultural team, I, I might say, yeah, but you should be willing to receive feedback and I think the job you did yesterday was terrible. Well, in some cultural settings, that way of giving feedback destroys trust. So yes, how do I package it in such a way that trust is still being.. So those are the four words that we often use to structure that trust conversation, to then create agreement on behaviors to pursue with people and behaviors to avoid. And we call that, you know, your trust charter or whatever. Uh, you could give it a nice, fancy name. It's typically no more than a half page or so, but it's really, it's really powerful. To, to create the third cultural space and, and not make any assumptions about how trust is built and how trust is broken.

Shelley Reinhart: 32:03

And you find those words, covers everything that's needed to really define trust., Marco Blankenburgh: you could go that, especially in teams that work together in organizations made A to B not-for-profits or, or, or commercial, uh, or educational, those are typically the words that, that really unlock most of the conversations that need to be had. Mm-hmm., that's great. And when you've done this in the. With teams. Do you find that people, once the conversation is started, they do start to really share how they define these things? They open

Marco Blankenburgh: 32:43

up, absolutely. Yeah. And we have, you know, fun, creative ways to do that, um, that, that allow them to really start sharing stories, cuz that, that's probably the, the most important. Everybody brings their own cultural journey into a team setting, for instance, and creating room for. Helps people understand, ah, that's why, how, why you think of the way you do, uh, about honesty, for instance. Um, that's why, for instance, as a, a guy born in, in, in a Dutch context. Now 30 years outside the Netherlands, when I first moved outside, I, I had no clue about how to be indirect in my communication, for instance. Hmm., Shelley Reinhart: Yes. And. How often I burn trust as a result of. Because I was too much in people's face or, uh, I didn't know how to package honesty in a respectful manner. That was more indirect. I didn't know that, that it was okay to maybe not raise an issue during a meeting., but rather offer my colleague to, you know, let's have a coffee and let's talk. Um, I thought it had to be, you know, the best way to deal with this was do it in the meeting there and then get it over with so that it's solved. Um, and I realized the hard way that that breaks trust, uh, for yes, many people in an intercultural setting. So yeah, getting, getting that conversation going. Um, I often see that people start to share their. They bring their story into the work context. It creates understanding, but also it, it creates room because people want their stories to be heard. Yes. And when that starts happening, people start to say, ah, okay. If that's how you see it, how shall we then together, uh, build trust and keep trust, you know, at the highest level. that's

Shelley Reinhart: 34:45

really beautiful. So people are sharing their stories of basically how they've understood and built trust from their human perspective. They're sharing that and then understanding is gained on the team. I love that. Mm-hmm.. Wow. Mm-hmm.. So I've heard you talk about, um, the five focus areas of building relational. I've heard that. I've heard you mention that. What are those five focus areas and why is building relational capital so important and how does it relate to trust?

Marco Blankenburgh: 35:20

Yeah, relational capital is, is super important. And it also alludes to the fourth conversations that we're actually having to build intercultural teams. So we call it the four pillars of intercultural teaming. Trust is always the one we start with. The second one is to, to do with the overcoming communication challenges. Mm-hmm.. The third one is, is all about aligning on how we pursue purpose, how we celebrate together. and how we correct each other. So what do we do if we do? And what do we do if we don't? And then the last one alluding to your question, relational capital. Mm-hmm.. And this has really come to the surface since Covid started. More and more people are starting to realize how important relational capital, relational strength, collective relational strength is on a team. Because what we saw is, Teams who had healthy, strong, and healthy relational hybrid.. Before COVID started, they held together teams that didn't have that, they started to disintegrate much faster. Mm-hmm.. So relational capital is back . Um, and, um, when you think about it, building relational strength or relational capital requires me to un first of all understand myself and understand you. So, , that's who I am as an emotional human being, as a, as a psychological human being, a personality, behavioral style, but also as a, as a cultural human being. So there's this undercurrent of we want to build strong relationships, then we have to get to know each other better. And we see that often with teams that once we start these conversations, they say, man, I, I really need. To spend more time with you, uh, you know. Mm-hmm., let's hangs. I love that. Let's hang out, uh, cuz I really want to get to the bottom of this, or I really wanna understand, uh, how you're wired, where you're coming from, because it helps us to be more successful as a team. And then those five things that you're alerting to, um mm-hmm. now. It's not always possible to fully embrace those. Depends how much pressure there is on the system in the organization. But the first one I like to talk about is that it is people before process. Hmm. We need to people before process. Um, we need to build organizations that are, you know, as, as beautiful as the people working in them. And putting people before process is one of the ways to. Yeah. The other thing, and I, I mentioned it early, earlier on when we talked about honest honesty starting on the inside, as in am I honestly present in this conversation? And that's the second part of building strong relationships or building relational capital, is that making every interaction count. So yeah, let's every interaction.

Shelley Reinhart: 38:17

Yeah. Am I honestly present? Mm-hmm.. Marco Blankenburgh: Yeah. So listen, well ask good questions and when you need to have, you know, a, a, a transactional, a tactical conversation, make sure you verify what you heard. So we call it mirroring. Make sure that if the person has given you insight or information, make sure that you mirror it back so that you clarify. So make every interaction count. We've already mentioned this, but when it comes to relational capital, um, there, the world of your colleague is important, so, So their struggles, their passions, their goals, they're important and making time for it despite the fact that we're all super busy making time and asking, how are you actually doing? Or, Hey, you mentioned that you, this, this was, uh, you had some challenges or, uh, mentioned you had a great weekend. It's not just a fluffy, you know, brush over question, but really, Care about each other's world. So that's the big one. So be So would you say like, being curious about your colleagues and being interested in them? Yeah. Yeah.

Marco Blankenburgh: 39:30

And, and of course, you know, behavioral style has a huge role to play. Yes. Some behavioral styles. They love doing that all day. Yeah. And other, other, other behavioral styles, they say, let's get to the bottom. Why, why are we meeting Yes. You know, , um, but find what's the point? Yeah, exactly. So what, what's the ba healthy balance, but, Caring about each other's world, and then also my intention towards you. Uh, that's another key ingredient. So displaying worthy intent. So when I meet with you, it's almost like you before me. So in this conversation, I want to make you important and I want to therefore be present because we're colleagues and we wanna work. And we might have a hierarchical difference in terms of roles and responsibilities, but no matter who the colleague is that you're sitting down with, no matter where they fit in the hierarchy, um, displaying worthy intent in meeting with each other, no matter if it's virtual or in person, I think is so beautiful. And, and it really, it really lifts people, um, as you, as you build relational strength or relational capital. And the last one, sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm., the last one. In that whole process, um, you still need to be performance focused because you might be the most amazing team and relationships are amazing. But if. The performance is not there.. Right?. The, the team will still fall apart. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, connecting performance to purpose as you built the relational strength. So what's really important there is, uh, and this is especially during Covid, this has come up that as a result of covid. Especially the young generation, the new joiners into the workforce, they struggle tremendously to BR build a professional network. They get stuck in the small virtual circles that they can go get called into. So especially during covid, we really need to focus on connecting and networking. And using that to, to enhance the visibility of, of the, our team and the visibility of the work that we're doing together. And that requires, uh, extra effort in terms of communication. So I, I call it communication squared, uh, really, really, uh, investing time. And, and when it comes to trust building, um, the whole piece of communication is so incredibly important. Yes. Uh, we talk about scaffolding our communication, so, so that it really has the impact intended. So those are the five, um, people before process making every interaction count. Care about each other's world. Mm-hmm., display worthy intent and pursue performance together and, uh, link it to purpose. And I think those are really, uh, those are high goals. I mean, yes, to really have those insight all the time, but I've seen teams really rise up as a result of that. Who would

Shelley Reinhart: 42:43

not wanna be on a team like that? Hmm. Uh, where you feel like your contribu. Matters. And you as a person, people care. They're invested in you. That's, that's, that's awesome. I would love to be on a team like that. And I, I kind of, I kind of am actually.. Uh, and that leads me to my next question. Um, what are ways, mark, that you've purposely build, built trust on our team. Um, the team of KnowledgeWorks, of course. I've worked at KnowledgeWorks for a few years now. So I think I know the answer to this question, but I'd love to hear, hear are your thoughts, you know, your personal Well,, Marco Blankenburgh: it's, uh, I, I feel privileged and blessed that we have an amazing group of people. But it's also, when I look at back at the early years of KnowledgeWorks, we've made plenty of mistakes, um, where it's not easy to, in a, in a tough industry. To, to really fire on both sides, like the transactional side of the business, pursuing transactional excellence and pursuing relational excellence at the same time. Mm-hmm.. And, uh, it's hard, you know, it's really hard. Mm-hmm. and, and when I look back, um, It's either, um, one of my friends calls it the, the infinity loop. So you focus on the people side and things really start coming together, and then your processes start to suffer. Or your, your financials are not in the right place. And then you swing over to the financials and fix it all up and get policies and procedures and workflows in place. And then you realize that the people starts, starts, uh, people side starts to suffer again. Mm-hmm.. So it's a, it's hard to, to pay that balancing act.. Um, but in the last few years, especially, I, I, I. um, uh, within KnowledgeWorks, we, we rallied around this word, uh, creating multipliers. So multiplication, creating multipliers become, became our rally word, and we found multiple ways to create those multipliers with one another. And that's where things become really practical. And, uh, by, by getting that level of clarity on the team, I think we were able to start quantify. How do we then behave amongst each other? How do we then behave in our communication with our clients? How do we behave when it comes to finances and decision making? Uh, we're not, you know, we're a social enterprise, so for us it's really important to, on the one hand, be financially viable. On the other hand, have as much impact in, in our world today. Mm-hmm.. So how do you make decisions? Those multipliers move forward together. Um, and how do you make sure that we, we live who we claim, you know, who we claim to be. That we, we, we, you can come and visit our offers or hang out with our team and, and see that we actually in house, we, we practice what we preach, so to speak. Yes. Um, so, so for instance, you know, in our communication we, we. We're very careful with our packaging. So we talk about scaffolding, our communication. Mm-hmm., what do we know about the person? On the other hand, uh, one of the tools that we use is, uh, using the three colors of worldview in our communication. For instance, yes. Am I, am I doing right by people? Am I honoring people? And it's my communication, empowering and life giving to the person receiving. Um, and we, we spent time on that and often we read each other's emails and we say, Hey, how does this sound to you? I'm writing to so-and-so. I'm trying to get this message across. What do you think? Um, and that slows us down in the beginning. But in the long run, it really helps us to yes, prac to practice these things and to build relational capital, to build high, higher levels of trust. And it's beautiful when we get feedback from our clients, they are. It's very relational, but it's also transactionally professional. Um, mm-hmm., it's high. You know, quick turnaround, uh, is one of the things that people say the most, uh, pleasant conversations. Approachable, people willing to go the extra mile, and, and that takes time to nurture that internally. Another way that I think, uh, we've built trust is that, yes, we have roles. Within these roles, we are, we all have, um, leadership. So if, um, if I think of, uh, for instance, uh, our office manager, Rosalyn, she's in in charge, , uh, she's, uh, in that role, uh, yes. And does an excellent job in that role.

Marco Blankenburgh: 47:39

Yeah. When I think of, uh, Rajita taking care of our websites, she's in charge of that role. Mm-hmm., and she does a wonderful job. And she's, she is freed to do that in her way. Yes. And, uh, That creates trust because, um, I, I'm given a task, a responsibility. I'm, I'm allowed to run with that, but also I can expect the team to back me up if I don't know how to do something or if I need additional resources or if I have, uh, skills that I need to develop that the team will rally. But the team will also find ways. to equip that person to do even a better job next month or next year. Yes. And that's also really important when it comes to trust building. Mm-hmm., Shelley Reinhart: you know, with everything you've said. I, I, I love all of those aspects of our team. And also I think just understanding the personality piece is so helpful as well. In our office, we have a wall with all of our disc profiles. Yep. And, uh, I, I, I love that because, Knowing that, you know, knowing you are more of a D it's very helpful. And, and what did you say? Scaffolding our communication. Mm mm How I relate to you, how I interpret you, how I understand the way you communicate. I just, I, I think it's so helpful, so helpful.. Marco Blankenburgh: And thanks for mentioning that because, um, actually the place in the office, I just have to look up from my desk and I can quickly glance, glance across to the glass wall back there and, uh, A reminder. Yeah,

Shelley Reinhart: 49:15

a quick reminder. Oh yeah. Shelly is an eye That's why she's, Going crazy. Yeah.. Marco Blankenburgh: Yeah. Change. Changing the language, changing the packaging depending on who you're talking to on an email. Yes. Or or in person. Yeah. Yes. Culturally and personality-wise. I love that. And, um, as we wrap up, that was an excellent answer. Thank you so much for that. As we wrap up, I think for everyone listening, how do we practically apply? What we've learned today. So what are some practical ways I can start building trust today, tomorrow, on my team, even in my family.

Marco Blankenburgh: 49:57

Hmm. Yeah, you actually raised a great point. Uh, in a family it works very in a similar way. Oh, it does, does within families. We have our own trust bank account, Really? And we, we withdraw and we deposit Um, and those four words again become really important. How reliable am I? How do I show appropriate honesty? How do we respect each other? And how do we show appropriate openness to each other? Yes. So, And, and I think it's practically, it starts with those four words. And yes, we have a grid for, you know, what are the talking points for each one of those shared some of them. Now on, uh, you know, today in this conversation, we have a number of articles on the website and we'll share those as well in the notes for this podcast. Um, Of course, I mean, we, we, we love working with teams and, uh mm-hmm . We have both our intercultural assessment, the three colors of worldview, as well as the 12 dimensions, the cultural mapping inventory. We use those in those high performing intercultural team journeys. But if you just want to read and, and use the framework in the way that, um, we unpacked it today. Few articles on our website, use what, what, what was shared in this podcast, and you can run with it. Excellent.

Shelley Reinhart: 51:18

And just to review those four words one more time, it's reliability, honesty, respect, and openness. Such good words, we should memorize those and, and have conversations around those. Thank you so much, Marco. This has been so helpful. So good. I, I mean, I, I of course know you well, but listening to you talk about trust in this very concentrated manner has, has been really helpful for me and I'm sure for

Marco Blankenburgh: 51:44

everyone else. Su such an important topic in our world. We, you. I, I, sadly I can say that the world is not doing such a great job, at building trust at the moment. That's

Shelley Reinhart: 51:55

very true.

Marco Blankenburgh: 51:56

Wow. But we all, within our own circle of influence have the opportunity to, to help lift the level of trust around us. So there's in, we can't just, uh, look at the world and say, oh, can't do anything about. On one hand that's true. On the other hand, we have relationships, we have job situations, we have family situations, friends, where we can actually use these principles and start elevating the trust between us. So we all have a role to play.

Shelley Reinhart: 52:26

I love that. I wanna do that. Yes., I wanna do that. Thank you, Marco. Thank you so much.

Marco Blankenburgh: 52:33

Thank you so much, Charlotte. This was wonderful. Yes.

Shelley Reinhart: 52:36

Really, really enjoyed this. Thanks.

Marco Blankenburgh: 52:42

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel or forward, and recommend this podcast people around you. As always, if any of the topics we discuss today, intrigue. You'll find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about intercultural intelligence and how you can become more culturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles@knowledgeworks.com. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast. Success. Thank you. Nita Rodriguez, ARA ra Raj, and thanks to VIP and George for audio production. Rosalyn Raj for scheduling and ketra for marketing and helping produce this podcast.