Kerry Lee | 00:00  
Seeing more and more of that sort of writing and psychological safety coming up, I'm quite excited, maybe it's the optimist in me, but I perceive there's a shift in how people are and how organisations will be, so it's that human to human sort of space is growing and I think people will want to know people more, will acknowledge what people bring to the table more. Right. And hopefully we see a shift as a result of that. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 00:39  
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast, where we explore the stories of some of the most advanced intercultural practitioners from around the world, to help you become culturally agile and succeed in today's culturally complex world. I'm your host, Marco Blankenberg, International Director of Knowledgeworks, where every day we help individuals and companies achieve relational success in that same complex world. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 01:07  
Welcome everybody to our Intercultural Intelligence Podcast, sharing stories from around the world where intercultural intelligence has been a part of people's lives, how they use it, how they journey through life as an intercultural, as a cultural human being. And today, Kari Lee has agreed to join us and I'm very excited, I'm very eager to hear more of her story. 
So, welcome Kari, thanks for joining us today. Thanks That's great. 
Kerry Lee | 01:35  
So much, Marco. Thanks for inviting me. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 01:38  
And for the sake of our audience, it would be great if you can do your own introduction. Well. 
Kerry Lee | 01:44  
Professionally, I'm a coach and a learning and development consultant. In the learning and development space, it's very much about developing learning solutions as well as training and facilitation. And in the coaching space, I focus a lot on transformation of individuals and teams. And in that space, there's a lot of focus on basically perceptions, you know, and how perceptions might be hindering people, so limiting them in some ways. And just the wonder that you see when they manage to break through that. But probably more importantly, just who I am as an individual is I'm a person who's really curious about people and about cultures. 
So, I'm an avid traveler. And if I can travel to places that are off the map, even better. 
And then I sit with a camera, which allows me to almost examine people and cultures and their rituals through a magnifying glass, just as you try and capture what their everyday life looks like. So, I think that's me in a nutshell. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 02:44  
Just even watching your facial expressions there, it sounds like your curiosity about people will probably be with you until the end of your life. I'm Fascinating. 
Kerry Lee | 02:54  
Sure. Even as they're hammering in the last nail, I'll probably be going, that's interesting. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 03:01  
Yeah. So, being into culture or even seeking out into cultural situations, exploring new people, new ways of doing life, etc., seems to be part of where you are today. But at what point did it start to feature? If you go back in your life as a young person, when did it start to feature? 
Kerry Lee | 03:23  
I think that's a good observation from your point of view, because I think I get a thrill out of being in cultures where I know nothing and then sort of figuring it out. So, I kind of reflected on this idea of where did it start. And going back, I realized it probably started with my grandparents. I grew up in South Africa, so I had one grandmother who was of Afrikaans origin and then a grandfather who was from English origin. 
So, just realizing there was a difference there. And I remember as a child, she used to listen to Afrikaans programs on the radio at a certain time. I didn't understand them, but I was fascinated by them. What was this other side of her? 
And then I have a father who's quite an interesting individual, and he ran away from home as a teenager and actually lived in sugarcane fields with Zulu workers. So, as a result, he has this fascination with Zulu culture, speaks Zulu as a Zulu man would. And we grew up with his stories of culture and sort of being embedded in Zuluness, if you could call it that. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 04:28  
You mentioned something that not everybody might be aware of. You mentioned there is people that are Afrikaans and then English, but they carry the same passport. How does that work? 
Kerry Lee | 04:43  
So, the history of South Africa is quite complex because you had a number of people in the 1600s and 1700s conquering different parts of Africa. So, the French were conquering the Germans. The French were coming in as conquerors. The Portuguese were there. 
So, on my grandmother's side, they originally came from Germany, and we date that back to about the mid -1700s that they've had a presence in South Africa. From my grandfather's side, this is obviously just one side of my family, probably about the 1800s coming over from England, and I think escaping difficulties in their home countries. 
So, very much a setter nation altogether. Right. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 05:27  
And then on top of that, becoming part of the Zulu community there and not just learning the language, but I assume the way of life that came with that in the sugar cane fields. 
Kerry Lee | 05:39  
Yeah. So, unfortunately, I was too young to really embrace that at the time. I was a toddler, but my father was the one who embraced it and sort of carried it into the family with us and taught us about Zulu culture and. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 05:51  
That. Right. Right. 
So, the intercultural side of life was already… you already have stories from your early childhood. 
Kerry Lee | 06:00  
Unknowingly, right? Because it's just… it's part of your everyday life. It's nothing unusual. 
Yeah. And there are probably quite a few South Africans who tell a similar story. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 06:09  
Yeah. And then you mentioned travel, but you've lived in multiple countries or…? Correct. Right. Correct. 
Kerry Lee | 06:18  
Travel -wise, I had the privilege of being an exchange student to Australia shortly after I'd finished school. So, obviously, that was a new culture for me altogether. And because I was part of an exchange program, I was meeting other exchange students from all over the world. Right. And I couldn't get enough of their stories as well as the everyday life I was living with different families. 
And then I've lived and worked in Singapore, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, where I am now, and, of course, different parts of South Africa. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 06:50  
Right. Right. In your journey, eventually, we connected. You got the initial sort of theoretical introduction to ICI, intercultural intelligence. 
So, describe to me how did it appeal to you? How were you attracted to it? 
Kerry Lee | 07:11  
I think the initial attraction was I had already realized I had this interest in people and culture in general. And, obviously, working in Singapore, I was working with 40 -plus different nationalities. I've lived with over 100 people, not just stayed or visited, but actually lived with people. 
So, I've seen different lenses in that personal space. And then, again, Oman, I was immersed in an Arab culture. When I came to the UAE, obviously, far more diverse with nearly 200 different nationalities here. 
So, I think when I heard about ICI, it was just – it was almost the logical next step of let's find out more about this. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know anything about it. Right. But because I knew it had to do with people and somehow it's something connected to culture, it appealed to me. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 08:01  
You had the chance to join a certification. So, you mentioned earlier on you're a learning and development expert as well as coaching. When you think back of you before joining that certification and then what started to happen to you after that certification, how did it impact you? Maybe it even changed you. I don't know. I'm curious about that. 
Kerry Lee | 08:27  
It definitely had an impact. I think initially it's that self -awareness and then almost that embarrassed, my goodness, what have I been doing wrong and how have I offended people? But a raising of consciousness of realizing that there's so many other ways of seeing the world. And so, once I had that realization, obviously taking it into training, it was wonderful to get others to see the world differently and see their colleagues differently and see the relationships that could grow from that. Then in a professional sense being able to position your discussion or position an argument from a different perspective to your normal one, understanding what would appeal to whoever it is that you're talking to, there's more of a win -win space that comes into play. I wouldn't say in any ways it's putting my own ideas to the side. It's purely positioning them in a different way. And there's quite an art to that, I think. 
So, But I think probably core is around relationships and just building genuine relationships that are built on curiosity. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 09:28  
It's positioning and packaging that starts to change. Yeah. 
Kerry Lee | 09:39  
And. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 09:40  
To that point, in the world of cultural learning, very often people, you know, start with the question, where are you from? And then that leads to, I'm from this country, if you have an easy answer. But there are plenty of people who don't have such an easy answer when it comes to that question. In our intercultural work with ICI, we say that, you know, every person has their own unique cultural wiring and it's connecting with that. That is a different approach. But I'm curious how you've been able to embrace that. 
So, the fact that every person is culturally actually on their own unique journey, but how is that meaningful for you? 
Kerry Lee | 10:23  
For me personally, obviously, I see myself more as a citizen of the world than as a particular passport holder. In working with other people, there are two things that come to mind. One is people who have lived and traveled in different parts of the world. In no way are they like the same person as the one that left their country initially, right? The other aspect, and it's one that I feel quite passionate about, and I've actually based my business on an Einstein quote, which is about everyone's a genius, but if you ask a fish to climb a tree, it will live its life believing it's stupid. And I really embrace that because I come from a background of teaching English as a second language. 
So, I've seen how people who are not native speakers have been judged. Likewise, I've seen how people who are from a culture different to whoever's making recruitment decisions, et cetera, how they judged without realizing actually they bring a totally different set of skills. They don't bring just one language, they bring five languages. Yes. 
So, for me, I do see people as individuals. I'm not sure if organizations see them as individuals, and I guess that's where I sometimes have a bit of a challenge in a normal sort of working organization. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 11:41  
When you think of situations where you were able to successfully apply that in a relationship, it could be a corporate relationship at work, it could even just be life, what's different? What starts to happen? Maybe you have even an example that you could think of. 
Kerry Lee | 12:01  
I'm thinking of one particular coachee who was an Emirati male. So, already we've got an unusual situation with a female coaching a male. But because of my curiosity about him as an individual and his experiences, he slowly opened up a little bit more and was able to talk about topics that he had never been able to talk to about anyone. But feeling safe was because it was in a coaching relationship where there were definite boundaries. I only went where he wanted to go. And I don't think that would have happened had I not been sensitive to the cultural aspects of his makeup. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 12:44  
Fascinating. Indeed, culturally at face value, at least, a unique relationship. 
Yeah. So, how, when you think of that coaching journey with that gentleman, in which way did that impact his life? 
Kerry Lee | 12:59  
From what he's told me, he started… he saw his family through different eyes for a start. And he came very much from honor shame as well as power fear. 
So, as a father in the power fear space, he started realizing how maybe that wasn't working for him, especially as his kids became sort of teenagers and university -going students. So, how he then tried, which was quite difficult for him, to almost shift more into that community space. We weren't coaching with intercultural sort of things, but he himself recognized going into that community space where the family was more of a team and how he needed to listen more to them and come up with solutions together was quite a thing for him. And that impacted his work as well. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 13:44  
That sounds beautiful. Now, you already started to allude to how you've used ICI professionally. You mentioned that you've done that in a facilitator, trainer, learning and development capacity. I'm curious if you have any examples of, you know, groups of employees being able to equip them with these tools. I would love to hear how that was received and what they did with it. 
Kerry Lee | 14:17  
Yeah. So, two examples come to mind. One is on the actual designing side. 
So, last year, the EBFI designed for a big international organization, and they had to train out the content literally across the world. And some of it was in that feedback space. 
So, it was really helping managers become leaders and to be more humane in their feedback, really, and to listen more than they talk, et cetera. So, they're having to think about what would the lenses be in each space, wanting to deliver the same content, wanting to deliver the same experience, but being sensitive to what some of the barriers might be in the different regions. 
You know, so, in that space, designing it in a very safe way and then training the trainers in how to elicit in a very safe way that people would slowly open up. So, that's more sort of in the design space. And. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 15:12  
I'm curious because I know in learning and development, you know, learning architecture and design, there are certain methodologies out there that when you listen to the experts, they say they're universally applicable. Right? 
So, what are you starting to change? Because I almost hear you say, no, some of these things are not universal. Could you speak to that? 
Yeah. 
Kerry Lee | 15:38  
I'd say your frameworks are universal in designing. Your framework's universal, but how you actually implement sort of in a classroom environment or a training room environment is something really different. And there's an article that I remember doing when I did my master's. This is an ESOL space, and it was called the Coral Garden. And it's by the author's name. It's Breen. I don't remember his first name. But just that image of the environment as a coral garden. 
So, it's almost like whatever the physical space is has as much of a role to play as whatever the content is that's coming out. And so, if you envisage that coral garden, it's learners learning from each other. It's feeding off each other. There might be sort of something beautiful growing in one corner, and maybe you focus attention on that, and then everyone goes back. Maybe the little clownfish needs their seclusion of time, and then they need to be enticed out at other times. 
So, I think it's being sensitive to multiple ways that people would be reacting. Maybe it's just psychology, but I think it's a little bit more when you bring in understanding of the context and you bring in more of an understanding of that culture as well. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 16:51  
Fascinating. It makes it more complicated, right? 
Kerry Lee | 16:55  
It makes it more complicated for trainers who just want to go in and do a book delivery and say they're done. Okay. But for facilitators and trainers who want the best of individuals and who really want to draw the most out of those and see them leaving happy and successful and having grown in something that's not mandated in a curriculum, then it's quite easy for those people. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 17:18  
So, if you bring that intercultural lens, you alluded to things like honor, shame, power, fear, which is part of the three colors of worldview. Another tool we use is the 12 dimensions of culture. When you bring that as a facilitator into the room, how does that make the engagement between the learners and between you as a facilitator and the learners? How does that change the engagement? How do people respond to that? 
Kerry Lee | 17:46  
So, I think I'll go very practical now. So, one thing is lots of opportunities for one -on -one conversations, for small group conversations where people feel safe that they can say what they want to say without feeling threatened by 15 other people listening to them. On a practical side, I'll look at specific courses. 
So, for example, in communication and business writing course, obviously, there's a very different style to what's seen as the Western style of writing versus an Arabic style of writing, a formal, you know, formal sort of correspondence. So, in that space, I would say focus very much on the relationship. 
You know, you write to whatever that level of relationship you have with the person. As they give you permission to engage with them at a different sort of level or more informal level, then you change your writing accordingly. In the communication space, there's a lot with assertiveness and sort of passivity. Okay. And aggressiveness, obviously. 
So, for some cultures, coming from that power, fear culture, that's an incredibly difficult space for them. So, how do you help them, A, to… they know what's best within their own culture, but how do you help them to become more agile that with other cultures they can experiment with being more assertive? Why is it that they need to feel empowered in being assertive, you know, and how do you scaffold it? How do you take them into that space where they feel more comfortable in trying to be more assertive? 
So, those are just sort of some small practical sort of tips in doing it. Does that answer your question? 
Marco Blankenburgh | 19:26  
Yeah. It raises another question for me because it you know, when you mention those examples at face value, they say, yeah, that makes sense. 
And then the next thing I would think is, yeah, I can copy and paste that. But that's not how it works, right? There's something else behind it. 
So, before you get to that moment where you say, here is something that with this particular group, with this mix of people, this is what's going to work. But for our listeners, just taking what you actually did and saying, yeah, that's a great idea, I'm going to try that. How do I work… how do I deal with that? Because I can't just copy and paste what you discovered with this group into my group of learners and expect that it's going to work. 
Kerry Lee | 20:15  
Yeah. In some ways, I mean, if you have done an intercultural certification, it helps you to listen for specific words, phrases or to look out for certain behaviours that hint at the different lenses that might be at play or even at the dimensions that might be at play. 
So, once you're aware of that, you can pick up from your learners what space they might be in. So, sometimes you support them in that space to help them feel safe and other times you challenge them in that space, but still always creating that coral garden where they feel safe enough to explore. But, yeah, it's about listening and observing, I think, and picking up on what is going on. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 21:01  
You mentioned two, I think, important words, supporting versus challenging. I've heard that before in the learning and design space. 
Do you push into challenge and how do you move into support? How do you decide what to do when, especially if you have an intercultural group? 
Kerry Lee | 21:21  
I would bring it back to relationship again. So, it's again, it's almost a vulnerability from you as a trainer. Obviously, if you've trained them multiple times, they know you, they know sort of who you are. 
So, it's showing that vulnerability, showing that, and it's not through words, but I think learners sense if someone's really committed to their growth or not. And then it's important to remember that whatever they're learning needs to be applied to their everyday work situations. It can't be in isolation. Yes. 
So, bringing in that knowledge, like real examples, I think helps them to see, A, okay, this is a confidential space. Maybe you contracted initially about that confidentiality. It's helping them to feel safe with each other, maybe through warm -up activities and that. 
And then it's giving them opportunities to get to know each other and to push the boundaries that they're comfortable with. And when they're not comfortable, for you to push them, you know, but maybe with a sense of humor as well. 
Yeah. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 22:23  
Yeah, that's great. I love it. Now, you've talked to one side is the design of a learning piece or a learning journey, that you use ICI there to come up with ways that are maybe more culturally agile. 
And then in the moment, in the learning space, together with the learners, it guides you as to which direction to take, what activities to speed up, slow down. You mentioned more support, less support, or more challenge or less challenge. If you don't mind, I'd love to switch to another thing you mentioned in your introduction, and that is the coaching space. Sure. 
So, you gave one example of coaching an Emirati gentleman from the UAE. How do you use this in the coaching space? In which way is it meaningful, relevant, exciting to bring it into your coaching practice? 
Kerry Lee | 23:18  
So, I think before I did the actual coaching certification, the intercultural coaching certification, I was already hearing, because I'd done the ICI, I could hear what people were saying. I could hear the lenses. I could hear the dimensions. But obviously, as a coach, you don't go where you want to go. You have to go where your coach, he wants to go. I think by being able to hear their lenses and to hear the dimensions, when they brought up a particular thing that was an issue, you could sometimes ask questions from the other side of that lens or from a different lens or from the polarity of the dimension. That would just cause them to think, you know, and maybe consider maybe there's another way. 
So, that's one way I could. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 24:06  
Think of. And I think I understand what you're trying to say, but any chance you have a practical example that you could share? 
Kerry Lee | 24:16  
Okay. So, for example, if I look at myself, I come from a very strong guilt -innocent lens. Knowing that, I almost step on eggshells because I'm aware that I'm so guilt -innocent. 
So, when someone presents something from the power of fear, I might be able to challenge them by saying, look, I come from a different perspective of you. May I share a view with you and you can tell me how that lands with you or how you would react to that. Right. 
So, it's not saying my way or your way. It's just saying this is another way. How does it feel when you hear that? 
Marco Blankenburgh | 24:57  
Yeah. Yeah. 
So, I think there's two things happening from, if I understand correctly. So, on the one hand, it starts to position you as a cultural human being in the coaching relationship in a different way. But it allows you to create broader perspective maybe or different perspective together with the coachee. 
Kerry Lee | 25:20  
Yeah. I think a lot depends on whether you're just coaching them general coaching or whether they have done an ICI assessment and you're consciously coaching them on ICI. Obviously, then they're slightly different conversations. 
So, in the example I gave, it's where they're totally unaware of ICI. Right. Right. And it's just showing them perhaps another way of looking at. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 25:45  
Things. So, when you think of more or less using ICI where somebody specifically wants to develop their skill, what would be some of the reasons people might say, coach me into that space? Why would they see that as beneficial? 
Kerry Lee | 26:04  
Look, if you work internationally, and I'll use Dubai as the perfect example, every minute of every day is intercultural. Right. 
So, the more that you know about what's happening around you and in that space, and the more that you can sort of pick up the nonverbal clues, it's only to your advantage. And most people that I would coach, especially in that leadership space, they want to be able to understand the people they work with. They want to have teams that are more engaged. Right. 
So, it benefits them to be able to understand that there's another side to it. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 26:42  
Now, you mentioned Dubai, which is one of the top 10 most intercultural cities in the world. What about, you know, other people who don't live in those super intercultural environments? In which way might it potentially be beneficial for them? 
Kerry Lee | 26:57  
It's interesting you ask that because I was thinking about that. I thought actually it's anything. It's even in a family, you know, brother and sister. You've got slightly different lenses. You think you're the same, but the aspects… I mean, I can look in my own family. I have a brother, and in certain things, we're completely different, even though we're very similar. Obviously, marriages, they would benefit from this. Third cultural, kids that have grown up in countries outside of the parents' home cultures, there's another dimension there. 
So, I think there's so much more. There's a lot with that unconscious competence, unconscious incompetence, right? 
So, only by doing ICI or CIC do you start realizing and you raise it to that unconscious competence, which is where you can start learning to grow. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 27:44  
Now, in the, you know, in the recent past, at least, or for most people, they would say, difference between brother and sister. Well, that's just personality. 
So, in other words, you know, psychology sort of gives you the lens where you can explain your difference. But you're now saying that even the cultural lens in that situation is helpful. 
So, is it in competition with psychology or is it…. 
Kerry Lee | 28:11  
I think the more tools you have on your wizard's bag, the better you can start understanding the world. Right. 
So, I know, I think it's complementary to psychology. So, you might be similar on values, but you might be different on experience. You might be different in cultural experience based on where you've lived in the world or people that you've been involved with. 
So, yeah, I see them all as complementary at the end of the day. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 28:38  
You mentioned actually two acronyms. ICI we've mentioned a few times, intercultural intelligence. You mentioned CIC, certificate in intercultural coaching. You're one of the few people who've trailblazed to do both a general ICI certification and a certificate in intercultural coaching. What would you say to people who are hearing about this for the first time? Why would it potentially be beneficial for them? 
Kerry Lee | 29:07  
Look, anyone who wants to be more successful in life, I would say ICI, intercultural intelligence, is valuable. If you are already a coach and you want to challenge yourself, first of all, at where are your questions coming from? Are your questions coming from a specific lens or is there an unconscious bias even when we look at the dimensions, you know, with regards to time, with regards to people, with regards to resources or community? 
So, I think as a coach it's really valuable to force yourself to examine your questioning. And we can never be neutral, but are we meeting the coachee in a space that is a fair and open space for the coachee? And are we putting their needs sort of ahead of our questions, if that makes any sense at Absolutely. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 30:02  
All? No, totally. That sounds like an exciting learning journey in and of itself. 
Kerry Lee | 30:08  
And then I think once you get into the team space, obviously so much value in helping others to see each other and how they see the world, to value how other people see the world, and then to draw on that cognitive diversity because that's the space where the magic happens. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 30:27  
Yeah. We've all gone through a very interesting season globally. We're now in 2021 as we're talking. Everybody thought the pandemic would sort of fizzle out. It hasn't yet. What are you excited about in 2021? What are you looking forward to? 
Kerry Lee | 30:48  
I'm very lucky because I was working from home before COVID. So, COVID gave me the opportunity to just do lots of upskilling, attend lots of amazing webinars. And this year is a bit of a continuation of that. But I'm excited to see what's coming up sort of in reading materials. 
So, I think I mentioned the other day Adam Grant's Think Again, which is all about rethinking and rethinking everything. There's there's a book by I think it's, is it Matthew Syed with Rebel Ideas? And he really, it's a great read if anyone's interested. That's very much about cognitive sort of diversity. He gives a great example, for example, Japanese researchers and American researchers. The Americans working on the micro with the Japanese were looking at the community and how the research differs. 
And then on top of that, the whole thing of subconscious leadership. So, seeing more and more of that sort of writing and psychological safety coming up. 
Yeah. I'm quite excited. Maybe it's the optimist in me. But so I perceive there's a shift in how people are and how organizations will be. 
So, it's that human to human sort of space is growing. And I think people want, will want to know people more, will acknowledge what people bring to the table more. Right. And hopefully we see a shift as a result of. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 32:13  
That. That's exciting. That's gives hope into in the world. I hope so. And I hope that we will have more opportunities to work together into the future. Absolutely. And it's been exciting to see your life journey and hear a snippet of it on this podcast. 
So, thank you for coming in. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. And there's going to be more stories from around the world from people that we have connected with in over 70 countries. 
So, tune in again next month for more stories to come. 
Marco Blankenburgh | 32:52  
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Cultural Agility Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with someone. The best way to help us out is by leaving a review on your favorite podcast app or channel or forward and recommend this podcast to people around you. As always, if any of the topics we discussed today intrigue you will find links to articles discussing them in greater depth in the podcast notes. If you would like to learn more about intercultural intelligence and how you can become more culturally agile, you can find more information and hundreds of articles at knowledgeworks .com. A special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast and to the whole Knowledgeworks team for making this podcast a success. Thank you, Nita Rodriguez, Ara Azizbakian, Rajitha Raj, and thanks to Vip and George for audio production, Rosalind Raj for scheduling, and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast.