00:00

we still have this viewpoint of schools

00:03

of very brick and mortar very box very

00:07

3d rectangular classrooms one little

00:10

window on the door

00:11

and i think

00:13

especially in covet times we've become

00:15

so much more open to education and so if

00:18

you think that perfect cultural agility

00:22

i just believe that you're giving more

00:25

opportunities for learning

00:27

outside of that box

00:31

[Music]

00:39

welcome to the cultural agility podcast

00:42

where we explore the stories of some of

00:44

the most advanced intercultural

00:46

practitioners from around the world to

00:48

help you become culturally agile and

00:50

succeed in today's culturally complex

00:53

world

00:54

i'm your host marco blankenberg

00:56

international director of knowledgebooks

00:58

where every day we help individuals and

01:00

companies achieve relational success in

01:03

that same complex world

01:07

welcome to this podcast everybody i'm

01:10

excited about this conversation today

01:12

with michael and shelly because it's

01:15

about education today and using

01:18

cultural agility in education so without

01:21

further ado i want to give both of you

01:24

the opportunity to introduce yourself so

01:26

michael welcome shelley welcome thank

01:29

you why don't you tell them tell me a

01:31

little bit more shelley reinhardt about

01:33

yourself yes i'd love to i have been an

01:36

educator my whole career i've taught in

01:38

many schools in the u.s

01:41

lots of private schools i've worn many

01:43

hats taught all grades just been very

01:45

been able to be very flexible which has

01:47

been great

01:49

so i love to teach it's my passion and

01:51

um i moved to dubai five years ago

01:55

and my husband introduced me to ici

01:58

because he hired marco you to come to

02:00

his company and teach ici and i joined

02:05

him for that seminar and fell in love

02:06

with it i just fell in love with the

02:09

idea of world views and understanding

02:11

culture and i'm hooked

02:14

awesome

02:15

it's been great working with you

02:17

michael bartlett wow i'm not as romantic

02:20

as that story

02:23

i was introduced through a third party

02:25

who also had ici come in and support

02:28

them on

02:29

hiring of people but also understanding

02:31

where their corporate structure set in

02:34

terms of three world views we were

02:36

looking at hiring teachers

02:39

as someone who has sat in so many chairs

02:41

in so many schools over 25 years

02:44

as a second career person actually not

02:46

as an educator originally

02:48

it's been interesting to see

02:50

both those particular journeys but also

02:53

my own journey both before

02:56

in those chairs and now after in those

02:58

chairs in education so

03:00

i i love it because it's furthered my

03:02

knowledge and my understanding of people

03:04

which isn't that what we want to do

03:06

especially as educators yeah absolutely

03:08

absolutely

03:10

so shelley already mentioned how you got

03:13

introduced to ici michael how did you

03:16

hear about it how did you get introduced

03:18

to it so ironically i was working with a

03:21

group looking to hire

03:23

about 25

03:25

turnover of a staff in a particular

03:26

school

03:27

and as we were sitting we were talking

03:29

about kpis and what our focuses were

03:32

i kept hearing this yeah but we need to

03:34

remember their culture view yeah but we

03:36

need to remember our training from

03:38

shelly and marco and yeah don't forget

03:40

and i'm thinking okay finally what in

03:42

the heck are you guys talking about who

03:44

is shelly who is marco what is this

03:46

world view right um and that's how i got

03:49

introduced to shelly and then eventually

03:51

here into the office

03:53

at that time even in covet times i

03:55

couldn't get enough because i'm

03:57

furthering my opportunities to know more

03:59

about

04:00

teachers not just people but where they

04:02

would fit in classrooms in cultures of

04:05

schools as i've now become an inspector

04:07

of schools how that fits to the overall

04:10

scheme you know we hear that word

04:12

culture

04:13

i like using the word inter culture and

04:16

where where kids and people fit so

04:20

that's kind of how i got involved and i

04:22

don't think i've looked back i've

04:23

enjoyed it so much and hopefully keep

04:25

looking forward to how i can put it into

04:28

both people and schools

04:30

it's easy to talk about that

04:32

theoretically

04:35

it might make sense to an awful lot of

04:36

people it definitely makes sense to you

04:38

but but do you have any practical

04:40

stories either the good the bad or the

04:43

ugly as in you know

04:45

where things got really messy or where

04:48

being culturally agile actually makes a

04:50

difference as an educator or as a

04:52

principal or yeah

04:54

yeah the first time i really saw this

04:57

in practicality a good friend of mine

05:00

was teaching at a school here in dubai

05:03

and she was so frustrated she was so

05:06

confused she would leave her classroom

05:09

every day

05:10

and just be like i don't understand what

05:11

happened today

05:13

and as i started listening to her and

05:16

asking her questions so much of what she

05:18

didn't understand was cultural

05:20

she didn't understand the way that it

05:22

was an all-girls school all of her girls

05:24

saw the world saw their relationship

05:26

with her saw the relationship with you

05:29

know the actual

05:31

content and um it really it made me sad

05:34

because she quit and she left she

05:36

couldn't she couldn't

05:37

the pressure was too much she left

05:40

confused thinking it was a waste

05:42

and that made me sad and i was like no

05:44

there's got to be a way that we can work

05:46

through this and understand what's

05:47

happening here what was she

05:49

misunderstanding what were they

05:50

misunderstanding how could they come

05:52

together how could they understand each

05:53

other so

05:54

that was the sort of the first

05:56

you know intercultural

05:59

awesome

06:00

yeah we'll talk later on about how

06:02

you've been able to now

06:04

equip teachers with the skills they need

06:07

michael you've been you're an inspector

06:10

you're a consultant you've been a

06:11

principal you work with principals

06:14

maybe from that perspective what have

06:15

you seen if if people have cultural

06:18

agility and if they don't have it you

06:20

know what's interesting is about three

06:22

years ago as i stepped out of the

06:24

principal role we

06:25

we got a mandate from

06:28

our ministries if you will on schools

06:31

are now going to be accountable to

06:32

turnover and what percentage of teachers

06:35

are coming and going how is that with

06:37

consistency in the classroom and now

06:39

you're going to be as we like to say in

06:41

the in the uae rate it based on that

06:43

turnover and the more i learned and this

06:46

was all before ici there was something

06:50

there there was there was

06:52

you know teachers would come into my

06:53

office as a principal or i would i would

06:55

sit and train principals and get this

06:58

overwhelming feeling of there's

07:00

something here that i don't know how to

07:02

teach these teachers

07:04

and it wasn't until i went through the

07:06

training and got certified that i

07:08

recognized when we sit across from

07:10

someone to hire them whether it's a

07:13

teacher or a middle leader or maybe even

07:16

interviewing a parent and a child to

07:17

come into our school

07:19

i think we're not only assuming but

07:22

maybe expecting that they will have our

07:24

same world view

07:26

and the questions that we ask are

07:27

centered around our world view well when

07:30

you go into

07:31

multicultural schools where whether it's

07:34

an imranti or an arab culture or even

07:37

now into the sub-asian and indian

07:39

culture of schools that i work for

07:41

you're starting to realize especially

07:43

after my certification

07:45

those questions of five years ago and

07:47

three years ago that i'm asking

07:49

won't help these teachers understand

07:53

where our culture of our school whether

07:56

it's third culture or whether it's the

07:58

and i'm doing the air quotes of culture

08:01

that's where i seen and it hasn't been

08:04

let's say nightmares

08:06

but it has been very much in retrospect

08:09

i think we're getting better at it

08:11

because we understand it

08:13

where before the schools i worked with

08:15

it was pretty common to have 20 turnover

08:17

and the majority of that 20 turnover is

08:20

the teacher coming to your office as

08:21

shelly's story said and said look i just

08:23

can't work with these kids yeah they

08:25

just don't see it how i see it exactly

08:26

they're doing blank and i don't

08:28

understand it and you're not acting on

08:30

it

08:30

so though you know that that's where i

08:33

come from now of the viewpoint when i

08:34

walk into a training exercise or

08:38

a middle leader exercise of hey before

08:41

we really get into the training let's

08:43

think and focus on where are you

08:45

what is your viewpoint

08:47

um so i don't know if that's a

08:49

particular story but i think it's a it's

08:51

it's where my journey is in terms of

08:54

people and kids and parents and teachers

08:57

yeah

08:58

so on the one hand it's the teacher

09:00

feeling they can't connect with the kids

09:03

in the classroom

09:05

on the other hand it might also be that

09:08

the kids interact with the content with

09:10

the curriculum in ways that they're not

09:12

used to

09:14

what about the interaction between staff

09:16

teachers amongst themselves have you

09:19

seen

09:19

challenges there or yeah

09:22

i have

09:23

um especially here in the uae and the

09:26

schools that i've

09:28

worked in i taught

09:30

the three world views to a group of

09:34

teachers at the beginning of a school

09:35

year

09:36

and

09:38

it was fascinating looking around the

09:40

room

09:40

all of the teachers from the west canada

09:44

the us whatever the europe they're all

09:46

sitting together and the arab teachers

09:48

were all sitting together and they teach

09:50

like moral education and they teach

09:52

arabic as a language they're all sitting

09:54

together they're separated

09:55

as i begin to talk about the three world

09:57

views

09:58

they're i mean people are like oh wow

10:00

yeah that's so interesting and the and

10:02

the arab table

10:05

they said yeah you know oh my goodness i

10:07

was racing on a shame now this makes

10:08

sense and they kept calling me over to

10:10

the table to ask questions

10:12

you know what do you think about this

10:13

and this and it was it was really

10:15

interesting and um

10:17

it just made me realize there's this

10:20

gulf between

10:22

that table and the rest of the tables

10:24

and there's they're not able to truly

10:26

understand each other but understanding

10:29

what world view that table had come from

10:31

made it easier

10:32

for the other teachers to say ah

10:35

explain this to me you know you were

10:37

raised in this worldview how did that

10:38

affect you you know all of that stuff so

10:41

that's where i saw it firsthand that it

10:43

made a difference yeah fascinating

10:46

yeah and feel free anywhere along the

10:47

conversation to jump in because stories

10:50

always illustrate you know very

10:52

powerfully what we're dealing with

10:54

um there's one thing we haven't

10:55

mentioned yet and that is the

10:57

relationship with the parents yeah i i

11:01

i've seen firsthand as a parent

11:04

with kids in school that

11:06

parents can be quite a challenge for a

11:07

teacher to deal with especially if those

11:09

parents have a very different mindset

11:11

very different cultural heritage that

11:13

they bring into the principal's office

11:15

or into the parent-teacher meeting or

11:18

the expectations they put on their

11:20

children

11:21

anything

11:22

you know that's a great viewpoint one of

11:24

the schools i was fortunate to open as a

11:26

founding principal

11:27

one of our marketing or kpi's

11:30

kpi areas of focus was we have western

11:33

teachers we were teaching the american

11:34

curriculum so we have american teachers

11:36

because we felt like that was the demand

11:39

in looking at market share to

11:41

put put students in seats as we say but

11:44

as we got further into it we realized

11:46

again you're assuming that that person

11:49

sitting across from you has the same

11:51

viewpoint of an american teacher as i do

11:53

yes

11:54

and what we've come to realize is they

11:57

don't they they are wanting that

11:59

particular teacher to function

12:01

in their viewpoint yes and we're wanting

12:03

that teacher to function as an american

12:05

principal so to speak in the american

12:08

viewpoint or wherever they come from in

12:10

america in the particular world view and

12:13

i found the clash more often as shelly

12:17

said that gulf between this table and

12:20

this table with this table now being

12:22

parents not arabic teachers but it's

12:24

still the view of oh yes i want an

12:26

american teacher

12:28

the school that i go to 50 of our class

12:31

teachers are american when in reality

12:34

they just want that american teacher

12:37

to do what they want

12:39

from their viewpoint

12:41

not really teach as we do in america and

12:43

that has nothing to do with curriculum

12:45

that's nothing to do with delivery

12:47

that's nothing to do with pedagogy

12:49

that's a hundred percent of them

12:51

wanting those teachers to function in

12:53

their culture

12:54

how they view it

12:56

and then the flip side of that is the

12:58

teachers don't know how to do that so

12:59

they become frustrated

13:01

and they have this expectation maybe of

13:03

homework or academic honesty or whatever

13:06

you might say

13:08

and the students won't have it neither

13:10

will the parents they will have a tutor

13:12

the tutor will do all the work the tutor

13:13

will get 100 on the homework and then

13:16

the student doesn't survive but it

13:18

brings honor to the family

13:20

because the particular child had a

13:22

hundred percent

13:23

but the teacher as shelley said is

13:26

becomes very frustrating yes so

13:28

understanding that we're now a few of

13:31

the schools that i'm working with

13:33

we're really focused on teaching parents

13:36

world view yes yes we're focused on

13:39

teachers and i think we're about to

13:41

cross that bridge but much more focused

13:43

on parents world view of understanding

13:46

when you say you want an american

13:48

teacher or a western teacher or my class

13:51

teachers from wherever that's not

13:54

arab no offense to anyone

13:56

that comes with its own viewpoint

14:00

and parents sometimes misunderstand that

14:03

because they're not educated right

14:05

and they also are the ones writing the

14:07

check therefore we should

14:10

behave according to the check writer

14:12

and the payer so that's been a lot of

14:14

fun um in terms of

14:16

helping parents understand we're even

14:19

expanding that into one group who's a

14:21

local university here

14:23

and teaching parents of university

14:26

students

14:27

coming out of a particular culture of a

14:29

particular school and understanding that

14:31

this school has a specific base a

14:34

specific set of teachers and as we get

14:36

into university there's much less

14:38

turnover university teachers they don't

14:41

care you do it their way or you don't

14:43

so that's been interesting fascinating

14:45

it reminds me of a program we ran with

14:48

future global leaders so end of high

14:50

school students and where we encourage

14:53

the students to take the conversation

14:55

about creating culture

14:57

creating a culture where people belong

14:59

to take it home

15:00

and it was fascinating where the parents

15:02

got involved once they understood

15:05

even the conversations at the dinner

15:06

table started to change

15:08

and it was fascinating to hear them get

15:11

excited and say wow i had this amazing

15:13

conversation with my parents and i was

15:15

able to take what i learned in school i

15:17

was able to take that home and start

15:19

talking about culture creation

15:21

and talk about grandpa and grandma and

15:23

parents and our siblings and how we keep

15:26

us together in a global world

15:29

you alluded to this idea of the

15:31

classroom and looking at you shelley

15:35

what would be an example of

15:37

a teacher

15:39

trying to use a certain pedagogy a

15:42

certain way of connecting with the

15:44

students and it doesn't work because

15:47

there is different cultures in the

15:49

classroom yes so many examples

15:53

one would be brainstorming

15:55

brainstorming is actually an innocent

15:58

skill concept where

16:00

you are free in the classroom to share

16:02

your opinions and the teacher wants your

16:04

opinion they want you to share it in

16:05

fact you're graded on sharing it your

16:08

participation grade counts on that

16:10

but from an honor shame perspective i'm

16:12

not going to share

16:14

unless

16:15

it's been validated and approved by my

16:18

community and myself i'm not just going

16:20

to

16:21

spew out whatever i think it's too no

16:23

there's an honor shame exchange so i'm

16:26

not gonna do that so kids you know are

16:28

sitting in the classroom and they're

16:29

from a different world view and they're

16:30

not gonna share their opinion and you

16:33

know until you scaffold until you say

16:35

look in this classroom we're creating a

16:38

culture here

16:39

of all the world views and your opinion

16:42

matters even unfiltered i want to hear

16:45

what you think and that's okay this is a

16:48

safe space to do that um if you don't

16:50

scaffold that in a classroom

16:52

with with different world views going on

16:54

you're not going to get kids who are

16:55

willing to share just off the cuff

16:57

brainstorm debate

16:58

have discussions it's not going to

17:00

happen right so if i hear you correctly

17:03

if you just

17:04

make that assumption yes certain kids

17:06

are going to speak up yes and other kids

17:09

are actually going to shut down yes

17:11

absolutely and you're not going to have

17:13

that beauty of debate and can i top on

17:15

that with how are we letting the

17:17

teachers know this is happening or is

17:19

going to happen how are we putting them

17:21

through the interview process of letting

17:23

them know listen this is the culture of

17:26

children that you're stepping into yeah

17:28

these particular

17:29

pedagogical strategies although

17:32

mainstream where you come from or

17:34

mainstream in your studies or mainstream

17:37

as a teacher

17:38

these are certain criteria you're gonna

17:40

have to set and rules you're gonna have

17:42

to set in your classroom where back in

17:44

the day we just put the three rules on

17:46

the first day of school and off we went

17:47

yeah right yeah

17:49

in addition to that i think shelley's

17:51

actually told me this story we asked

17:53

children to think critically and think

17:55

outside the box and not necessarily

17:58

brainstorm but have different viewpoints

18:00

of different opinions of different

18:02

statements

18:03

and then we ask them to practice that or

18:06

think about them and then they go home

18:07

and they sit at the dinner table right

18:09

where dad's in charge

18:10

you know and the father is very

18:13

in charge

18:14

and when the child says you know today i

18:17

learned that

18:18

i have this particular opinion on

18:20

something you've said

18:21

the father comes to school and says how

18:23

dare you

18:25

have this son question my authority in

18:27

my own house yes when all you're trying

18:30

to do is teach them the skill of

18:31

critically thinking

18:33

or different viewpoints of a particular

18:35

aspect of what you're learning in the

18:37

class

18:38

i find that we don't

18:40

as a group here in the middle east

18:44

maybe not even america i don't think we

18:46

equip our teachers well enough

18:48

to know what that looks like

18:50

and i know we don't equip our leaders

18:53

well enough

18:54

and i'm a hundred percent sure we don't

18:56

equip our parents

18:58

to know what it means to be as you say

19:00

an innocent skilled teacher or a western

19:02

teacher which is where the majority of

19:04

us come from

19:06

a lot of the examples you've given so

19:08

far are more international schools

19:10

oriented

19:12

there's going to be people listening

19:13

from asia from europe from from north

19:16

america

19:17

and they might potentially say well i

19:20

live

19:20

in a town where mostly everybody has a

19:23

passport from this country there is a

19:25

cultural mix there might be second third

19:27

generation it might be inner city

19:29

international school

19:31

what would you say to people who are not

19:34

in the region that you live in where

19:36

almost all the schools all the schools

19:38

you've worked with are international

19:39

schools and there is like kids from 40

19:42

to 90 different nationalities

19:44

what would you say to educators in

19:46

europe or in north america where both of

19:48

you are from

19:50

do they need cultural agility as well

19:52

yes yes

19:54

because if you're an educator your goal

19:57

is that you're creating you're

19:59

communicating

20:00

knowledge and principles to those

20:02

students and you want to do it in the

20:04

best way that's going to engage them and

20:06

reach them and you can't just walk in

20:08

and assume that everyone is thinks the

20:10

same way you do even in a town where

20:13

most people are the same so

20:15

if a teacher is committed to creating a

20:17

culture where every student can engage

20:20

and every student is heard and can and

20:23

is um

20:24

able to be

20:25

taught in a way that they can understand

20:28

then we have to look at world views no

20:30

matter where we are

20:32

you know i kick myself i taught at the

20:34

same school for a decade before i came

20:36

to the middle east and i just looked

20:38

back and i thought my goodness how bad

20:39

of a teacher i was

20:41

because i didn't create those

20:43

opportunities i was very cut and dry i

20:45

was an athletic coach which you know

20:47

that stigma comes in north america or

20:49

let's say american football type

20:52

and i look back and i remember

20:54

i had just as many different

20:57

cultural viewpoints even though we might

21:00

have all been innocent's guilt to a

21:01

certain extent

21:02

we still had multicultural viewpoints

21:05

from

21:06

all aspects right and then we were

21:09

that particular school was in south

21:11

texas so we also had culture of the

21:14

mexican

21:15

right or the spanish and what that

21:18

looked like even though they might have

21:20

been wealthy enough to attend that

21:21

particular private catholic school it

21:23

was still a completely different

21:24

viewpoint and a completely different

21:27

base of what it looked like so

21:29

yeah i kicked myself it doesn't it

21:31

shouldn't matter your passport it

21:32

shouldn't matter where you're teaching

21:34

you're going to have different cultures

21:36

and as shelly said you've got to create

21:38

i like the word safe space but i like

21:40

the word share space

21:42

i've heard that quite a bit create a

21:45

space of sharing yeah and the door is

21:47

closed and and this is your place

21:50

right and so that shouldn't matter what

21:52

your world view is yes and i think if

21:54

you

21:55

again make that assumption of that child

21:58

that's across from you will share

22:00

exactly what yours is

22:02

then i think you you've done a an

22:04

injustice to the classroom yes and

22:06

you're naive yeah yeah it's not that way

22:09

yeah

22:10

and when we look at education globally

22:12

it's getting more and more intercultural

22:14

especially in cosmopolitan cities we see

22:17

in the rise of english as a second

22:19

language requirements in europe in north

22:22

america

22:24

so

22:24

there's always that cultural mix in the

22:26

classroom and the shared space michael

22:28

that you're talking about we talk about

22:31

creating a third cultural space or a

22:33

space where culturally people feel at

22:35

home shelley you are alluding to that

22:38

now

22:38

if i was a principal of a school michael

22:40

you've you've been a principal you work

22:42

with them extensively how do i even

22:45

start this

22:46

how do i get going on this look i think

22:48

the first thing is understanding

22:50

that there are things that you don't

22:52

know

22:53

right and recognizing that and having a

22:55

little bit of

22:57

humility on understanding like and i as

23:00

the principles i talked to there was

23:01

always that one thing they couldn't

23:03

identify

23:04

and i believe this is the one thing so i

23:06

think you know educating them but them

23:10

saying

23:11

okay i recognize there's something

23:13

i want to know what that is and i don't

23:15

think we ever stop learning and so being

23:18

able to have enough humility to admit

23:20

there's something i want to stop and

23:22

find out what it is

23:24

where

23:24

you know i taught a leadership class

23:26

yesterday we get so caught up in the

23:29

day-to-day administrative duties of

23:31

being a principal

23:33

we sometimes forget we are the leader

23:35

and to be a leader you have to have an

23:37

understanding of all of the aspects of

23:40

the building whether that's culture

23:42

whether that's

23:43

where you come from in high poverty low

23:45

poverty but i think recognizing that

23:48

there are things that you still don't

23:50

know would be a first step

23:52

and i think that opening the door to

23:54

learning more about this can help you

23:57

also open more doors in my opinion

24:01

that's great

24:02

so if you could sort of dream about

24:05

a school that really gets this

24:08

let's say everybody involved in the

24:10

school from the principal the leadership

24:12

team

24:13

support staff the teachers

24:15

the school

24:16

is culturally agile

24:19

uh even in the way they engage with

24:21

parents with the community at large well

24:24

paint a picture for me what would it

24:25

look like

24:27

what's different about it yeah

24:29

well i think everything's different

24:31

about it right you know we still have

24:33

this viewpoint of schools of very brick

24:36

and mortar very box very

24:39

3d rectangular classrooms one little

24:42

window on the door

24:44

and i think especially in covet times

24:47

we've become so much more open to

24:50

education

24:51

i taught a class yesterday of principles

24:53

across 31 countries

24:55

right so it's not just me in front of

24:58

this particular set of leaders and so if

25:00

you think that perfect cultural agility

25:04

i just believe that you're giving more

25:06

opportunities for learning

25:09

outside of that box

25:12

you know we don't i don't want to call

25:13

it

25:14

you know out of the box thinking i just

25:16

think you're giving more opportunities

25:18

for that and you're also teaching them

25:21

you know we talk a lot about our kids

25:23

don't

25:24

we we get things so set up for them when

25:26

they have a struggle we don't teach them

25:29

how to function in a struggle we fix the

25:30

problem

25:32

i've read a really good book about the

25:34

difference between saving and coaching a

25:36

child

25:37

and so understanding what that looks

25:39

like and you see kevin over in the

25:41

corner and he's struggling with a

25:42

particular thing well what did we do as

25:44

teachers we get over that corner as fast

25:46

as we can and we fix his problem where

25:49

at the end of the day if we just coached

25:50

him through and helped him understand

25:52

you're going to have struggles

25:54

this is a perfect opportunity for

25:56

educating world views

25:58

so that we could teach them more about

26:00

struggles because you're going to

26:00

struggle i mean think of the last 20

26:02

months yeah you know think of the

26:04

struggles not just of teachers but of

26:06

human beings but also look what we've

26:08

accomplished in the last 20 months yeah

26:10

in terms of you know humanity

26:13

and if if i think about that take that

26:16

dream a little bit further let's say

26:18

kids graduate from that type of a school

26:20

where becoming culturally smart knowing

26:23

how to create culture together with

26:24

those types of things are part and

26:26

parcel of

26:28

being at that school

26:30

now they graduate high school what's the

26:32

difference how would it help them yeah

26:35

they're going to be able to be

26:37

agile to to meet people

26:40

and not make assumptions to meet new

26:43

people and to be able to interact with

26:44

them a way that's understanding and

26:46

compassionate and empathetic

26:48

because

26:49

they know that their worldview is not

26:51

the only one that the person in front of

26:53

them is a unique cultural being with

26:55

their own worldview and if i'm trying to

26:58

understand that person i need to connect

26:59

with that piece and they're going to

27:01

have the tools to do that

27:03

whereas

27:04

other kids just don't you know i think

27:06

if we call that functionality i hear

27:08

that word quite a bit now in education

27:10

are we teaching children or students or

27:13

graduates to function

27:15

in different aspects of the world

27:17

where

27:18

most of the time we choose the

27:20

university that closely matches what our

27:21

parents taught us we go there we

27:24

graduate right and then we move on to

27:26

the world and most of the jobs we take

27:28

are jobs that more closely match those

27:31

aspects of the world

27:33

knowing that there are more out there

27:35

and knowing that we are more

27:37

multi-functional i think is a good word

27:39

um

27:40

agile it opens opportunities and doors

27:44

you know shelly and i both we have

27:46

university aged children

27:49

my daughter's graduated was a teacher's

27:51

now going back and getting a master's

27:53

shelly's in her university years with

27:55

her daughter

27:56

we recognize that their functionality is

27:59

what's going to make them successful not

28:02

what their grades were right where 10

28:04

years ago it was how high were your

28:06

grades if you're going to an american

28:08

university how high is your sat

28:10

and now it's much more functionality now

28:12

it's much more

28:13

can that child succeed in particular

28:15

aspects of the world yeah

28:19

especially as social media and that's a

28:20

whole nother podcast yeah

28:22

absolutely

28:24

it's exciting i had one more thought

28:25

about that vision yeah yeah the dream of

28:28

what a culturally agile school would

28:29

look like so in my in my dream it's the

28:33

student the parent walks through the

28:34

door

28:35

and they already feel like they belong

28:38

because

28:40

there's a sense about that school

28:43

that the three world views are all

28:45

acknowledged that there's beauty seen in

28:47

each and we're going to work within

28:49

those world views to create a school

28:51

culture not okay this is our school and

28:54

our school is innocent skill and you've

28:55

got to conform to innocent skill if

28:57

you're going to belong here it's not

28:59

that it's the school's successfully

29:02

created a culture where everyone belongs

29:04

where everyone is included and in the

29:07

classroom the teacher's able to do that

29:09

and able to reach a student where they

29:11

are like oh that would be so awesome

29:13

it's interesting that you say that

29:14

because one of a few of my new

29:16

consulting contracts are

29:19

from groups purchasing schools or

29:21

getting ready to open schools

29:23

and one of the very first questions they

29:25

say is what can we do to put people in

29:27

seats

29:28

you know how can we increase enrollment

29:30

yeah and my answer is exactly what

29:31

shelly said you need to have people

29:34

agile enough to understand their needs

29:37

and again it's that person sitting

29:39

across from you yeah you don't assume

29:41

you want them to conform to you how can

29:43

you create an atmosphere yes where they

29:46

and and it's a true atmosphere it's not

29:48

a fake atmosphere you're not answering

29:50

with the answers they want to hear right

29:53

it's it's true yeah and so that's really

29:55

what will change a school

29:57

as we talk about with these companies

29:59

wanting to buy schools or open new

30:01

schools so yeah i love that analogy i

30:03

appreciate it oh that's great and i i

30:05

can hear the passion in your voice as

30:07

you speak about it and you had a chance

30:10

shelley to develop a program called

30:13

culture in the classroom

30:15

and i've seen how that has evolved and

30:17

how powerful it has become i want to

30:20

give you a chance to talk about that

30:21

because it's important and it's an

30:23

exciting program that equips teachers so

30:26

what is it what is the culture in the

30:28

classroom program thanks yes i'm so

30:30

excited about this and michael was there

30:32

at the beginning too

30:34

i was there you were there all the

30:36

post-its on the wall we talked through

30:38

every aspect um but basically it is

30:42

it is teaching teachers that they are

30:45

cultural beings that they have a culture

30:47

and a worldview that they are bringing

30:49

to the classroom

30:50

and that impacts the way they teach

30:52

and if you're not aware of that if you

30:54

cannot see that lens

30:56

then you're going to miss

30:58

touch points with your students you're

31:00

going to miss those connectors those

31:02

those ways of building culture in the

31:04

classroom so the first step is to

31:05

understand who you are as a cultural

31:07

being and then we get into the

31:09

nitty-gritty the fun stuff of

31:11

okay what does it look like in a

31:13

classroom

31:14

when you have different worldviews how

31:16

does it work what are you going to see

31:18

what behaviors are you going to see and

31:20

how are you going to

31:21

relate to them understand them and some

31:23

of the things we talk about are like

31:25

lying and cheating and bargaining and

31:27

plagiarism and when you think about

31:30

teachers that have gone through

31:32

the culturally agile teacher program

31:35

versus the ones that haven't

31:37

would it potentially have an impact on

31:39

retention of that teacher as well

31:41

definitely yeah i think because they're

31:44

more knowledgeable and understanding of

31:47

the particular environment they're in

31:49

they're much more likely to stay and

31:51

they're much more likely to be

31:53

to recognize

31:55

this has nothing to do with the

31:56

principle this has nothing to do with me

31:58

right this is just a product of our

32:00

particular environment of school yes hey

32:03

you know i know that i can work with

32:04

this i can do this yes right and i think

32:08

it's a it's it helps them understand

32:11

you know maybe the grass is not always

32:14

greener mm-hmm right and and now that i

32:17

know these things and i've gotten to

32:18

know my particular teachers or my

32:20

science department or whatever i can

32:23

function here and i can i cannot just

32:25

survive

32:26

yeah i can i can be successful

32:28

yes so i might be a teacher

32:31

from four or five different continents

32:34

potentially listening to this podcast

32:36

and if i want to become more culturally

32:39

agile as a teacher what do i do shelley

32:41

um take my course

32:44

no but no yeah i mean

32:46

talk to me because there's so many ways

32:49

to

32:50

get this out there

32:51

it's such good material it has such an

32:54

impact it makes a difference

32:56

um i wish i could have

32:58

you know talked to my friend the one i

33:00

talked about at the beginning of the

33:01

podcast and said okay you know your

33:03

school operates in these world views

33:05

here's what you're gonna see here's what

33:07

to expect

33:08

don't be shocked this is this is what's

33:10

going to happen and here's how you can

33:12

respond i wish i could have

33:14

and we'll we'll definitely make sure

33:16

that there's information available for

33:18

people to connect and also michael i

33:20

really appreciate you coming in because

33:23

you have that almost like strategic

33:25

level as well as

33:27

practice level principal experience

33:30

insight how do you typically engage with

33:32

schools if schools or principals or

33:34

leaders of schools are listening to this

33:36

podcast how do you start one hundred

33:39

percent of my

33:40

interactions with schools is word of

33:42

mouth

33:43

i don't go in and become a one-stop shop

33:46

i try to take schools on journeys

33:49

um what i'm learning and especially

33:51

since i've been certified and and

33:53

understand this cultural agility

33:56

i find i'm better for schools

33:59

because i have an understanding of

34:01

before i was very cut dry you're a

34:03

principal you have a problem let me fix

34:04

your problem where now i'm much more

34:06

understanding of what it looks like from

34:08

their side of the desk both from an

34:10

experience as a principal but also their

34:12

particular

34:13

likely world view even though i haven't

34:15

necessarily assessed them i would say

34:17

that from from my point of view

34:20

take the step

34:22

you know contact whoever you need to

34:24

contact find a way to get one two three

34:27

ten all of your teachers through this

34:30

designate some leaders to help you know

34:33

cultivate this as as we that word

34:35

culture but cultivate it within your

34:37

school

34:38

as far as what i do within schools i

34:40

think what's important is

34:42

i

34:43

i help them in their education journey i

34:46

don't educate them

34:48

you know i give them information i give

34:50

them resources i do provide some

34:53

professional development but ultimately

34:55

it's then that makes the decision to go

34:57

on the journey or not right

34:59

and i think i spoke earlier about the

35:00

leadership particular class that i'm

35:02

doing at the moment

35:04

it's awesome even when you're i mean i'm

35:06

a chemistry physics teacher when you see

35:09

those light bulbs

35:10

right and it's like oh hey

35:13

when you see that in a

35:15

25-year middle leader of a school yeah

35:19

and they go

35:20

you know you can just see it and you

35:22

then all of a sudden they walk out with

35:24

a smile instead of a scowl of the 35

35:26

emails they have to return right so

35:28

that's awesome yeah well

35:30

thank you so much i have so many more

35:32

questions i would love to ask and

35:34

there's lots of stories to tell but uh

35:36

anybody who's listening to this podcast

35:38

you will be able to get in contact with

35:40

michael and charlie by our team thank

35:43

you so much for coming in i'm pretty

35:45

confident there's many more stories to

35:47

tell in the foreseeable future yes as as

35:50

we have the opportunity to bring

35:52

cultural agility to schools so thank you

35:55

for being part of that journey and that

35:56

important work that happens hopefully

35:59

around the world thank you for the

36:00

opportunity thank you thank you

36:05

thank you so much for joining us for

36:06

this episode of the cultural agility

36:08

podcast if you enjoyed today's episode

36:12

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36:13

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36:15

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36:23

as always if any of the topics we

36:25

discussed today in 3q you will find

36:28

links to articles discussing them in

36:30

greater depth in the podcast notes

36:33

if you would like to learn more about

36:35

intercultural intelligence and how you

36:37

can become more culturally agile you can

36:39

find more information and hundreds of

36:41

articles at

36:43

knowledgeworks.com

36:45

a special thanks to jason carter for

36:48

composing the music on this podcast and

36:50

to the whole knowledgeworks team for

36:52

making this podcast a success thank you

36:56

nita rodriquez ara aziz bakken rajitha

36:59

raj and thanks to Vipin George for

37:02

audio production rosalind raj for

37:04

scheduling and caleb strauss for

37:07

marketing and helping produce this

37:09

podcast